Engine builders. 800 hp possible??

[raymar58409]

Ok guys here we go.
I'm giving real hard consideration to building a W engine for next year for our dirt super late model race car. The engine we are currently running (sb 350 stroked to 383) was built with a restricted rules class in mind where it does real well. But we are pretty much down on power when we run the super late model class with unlimited cubic inch (cubic dollars$$) engines. Sooo I either have to build a high dollar sb likie the rest or try something different. A slightly stroked 409 with Rich's heads and intake together with a bunch of other good parts should do the trick but I'd like others ideas here. Think we can get reliable 800 hp for circle track??
I think my biggest concern would be using a 45 yr old truck block which is why I wouldn't want to stroke it too much in order to keep the stress on the block to a minimum, use 4 bolt caps naturally and light rotating assembly, dry sump oiling, etc. And if anybody would be interested in a sponsorship along the way in any form or another that would be even better. Check out our racin website at http://www.furarracing.com
If nothing else should be an interesting talking point.
Ray

 

[Bubbletop Bel-Air]

I do not believe 800 HP is possible from one of these engines, reliabily or otherwise. That type of power level requires parts and technology just not available for these engines. Even if you were able to build a 500" bored and stroked monster, it would require 1.6 HP per cubic inch to reach your 800HP output level, not going to happen. The money required to TRY to get one of these engines anywhere near that level would be better spent on proven parts and combinations.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

I have to agree with Larry. I dont want to though, I would like to see a w head going round and round again. I build some small-block dirt track motors and I dont see how they keep running lap after lap , night after night. So much abuse, then pull into pits, raise the hood, MUD everywhere. Ugh!!! I am afraid you will never reach 800 hp even with the new aluminum products but man , what fun. Good luck,,,

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

A family operation

Ray, nice website depicting a dedicated family working together in support of a common goal (and some fun to boot!).

A guy who used to be from around where I live used to race roundy-rounds with a 348 back in the 60s, been trying to connect with him for two years or so. Still has his old parts and claimed 600 horses. Wonder what kind of heads those were???

Best,
TomK

 

[oil4kids]

1500 Hp

I disagree

I think Lamar Waldens twin turbo 409 probably went to 1500 HP

 

[Bubbletop Bel-Air]

Apples and Oranges!!!! Did you even read the description that went along with the thumbnail? Since when does Rodeck make an all aluminum block for the W motors. Thats a MK.IV block for sure. And an all billet "409 type" head? The only thing true 409 on that motor is the valve covers. 1500 HP and low eights? I can run that in my Lumina with a 540, single 1050 dominator, powerglide tranny, off the shelf parts, and home built to boot.

 

[oil4kids]

true

well, your right this one is a little special but Lamar did most of his 1000 hp motors with the original cast iron blocks before he switched to the 74 degree rodeck

Lamars billit heads were done by Rich Rojeski based on the Z11 design

the fact is he maxed out the dyno at 1500 with a original 409 design



How many present day funny car Hemi's are using the factory design?

 

[raymar58409]

Thanks for your comments guys. Applying new technology to the old block such as roller bearing roller cam, lighter rods, lighter crank, 400cfm heads, kinda make it like a small block under the rocker covers. I think this is possible but takes one of parts to accomplish. I have been corresponding with Rich and as I run around the country I plan to stop at Lamar's next time I get to Georgia and run it by him. Stay tuned this could get interesting. Or bang

 

[gearhead409]

Raymar

i think Lamar can get you there but it won't be with iron heads. the only problem i see would be reliability. the small block guys have spent years making the mouse motor reliable on the round track. with the W motor you won't have this luxury. this learning curve will be expensive. but wouldn't it be great to see a W motor do well in the round track arena! PS about the only way i can see to get this kind of power out of a iron head W motor is to use a blower.

 

[raymar58409]

gearhead409

Definitely planned on aluminum heads. The SB we run now (350 stroked to 383) mkes about 650 hp with 14:1 brodix unported track 1 heads roller cam. Acording to crowers simulator he feels 700+. I dont think so. We are in our second season on this engine.We got about $7k in this doing our own machining running against a bunch of $30k Pro Pwers and such. We run with em but aren't beatin em.







Yet!!!!!!!!
Ray

 

[raymar58409]

Bubbletop bel-air

Just keep telling me I can't. It's just an air pump. The more air you can stuff in it, add a little fuel, make a spark and kaboom. Just gotta do it all at the right time, keep the stroke down so as not to overload the blocks strength (or lack thereof). I watch all this high $$ mouse motors go kaboom all over the track cuz they stroke the heck out of em and it spreads the block apart. We run against sb2.2's when we run the 2bbl class. Ain't that a trip. $400 to win and a $20,000 engine. Must be nice. I'll keep you all posted.
Ray

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Ray, I sure do like your attitude. Your confidence has caused me to change my mind. I think you can do it. Think of the sponsors you will gain with a little sucess with a w head. We will all be pulling for you. But ya gotta share some of the good stuff you come up with. Roller cam bearings for 409? I cant wait. Wish you all the luck

 

[bignbad60]

bang Ray;
GIVEM HELL ....I for one would love to see you make it happen...I'm just curious as to wether you will have to make some serious suspension mods to adjust for the extra weight or are the motors centralized enough that it will not be a factor, or would the extra weight up front be beneficial ? I've never raced these cars so I have no Idea personally. Anyway keep us posted on your progress

 

[raymar58409]

Bignbad60

It will actually not be much heavier than what we are currently running iron block, aluminum top end. We are adding 25 lbs. of weight to the front now for balance. so weight shouldn't be a problem. As for the roller bearing roller cam it will depend on if there is enough meat in the block for this.
Dare to be different.
Torque gets you off the corner to the flagstand, horsepower carries you down the straight.
Ray

 

[raymar58409]

Tomk

Hi Tom
if you run across the guy with the 348 parts ask if I can study what he's got. I think Rich's heads and intake are the way to go on this though. Just a little history on me. I worked with Indy's first and only turbocharged V 12 engine back in 82, unfortunately the owner died before we could complete the project and the speedway refused to allow us to enter it that year. Basically they said it was grandfather righted in under the originaal owner and they were banning anything more than 8 cylinders. Anyone wanting to verify this can read the rules for 1983. They didn't bother us for 5 yrs. Maybe getting scared??
And this based on an engine built in 1937. Good thing they never new about the new design we had in the works. I still have the 2.2" stroke crank we had built, the engine is in Speedway Motors Museum in Lincoln, Nebraska. The family wouldn't sell it to me.
Ray

 

[region rat]

Maybe I don't pay close enough attention, but I don't remember any one breaking a block from too much HP. An engine builder I know runs Pro nostalgia with a pontiac. 440 inches with 900 HP. He has a guy that makes billet steel main caps for any application, uses good aluminum rods and after market top end. @ 3450# he's been in the 8's. He makes every thing that moves as light as possible. Carbon fiber drive shaft, gun drilled axles, lightweight gears and spool. I guess part of going fast is making the power, the rest is not wasting it. He had some ideas we will try on an 09 soon as I find a large enough box of $$$.There is a formula, not sure of the exact #'s but 1 cfm of intake airflow gives you the ability to make about 2.1 HP under ideal conditions. The only way to exceed this volumetric efficient thingis by using a power adder, like a blower or turbo. Ricks heads are the only route to take. I'd try a shop with more R&D to flow the heads based on what your motor might need. Heads can be too big. I wouldn't say 900 is impossible, just never been done. Bob

 

[region rat]

Raymar, A couple guys have run 9's with 3500# cars @ 135mph. I don't have my Moroso slide rule but I bet their a tad over 700 hp. And that's with the best iron heads out there . Rich's will outflow the best iron so you might have a shot. Not sure what you need on a roundy round car. Bob

 

[nilsenpeter63]

I think it is possible.
I just heard of a street driven 64 2door post with a stroker 409, (454 crank) max ported 690 heads, roller cam and so on.It cranked out well over 700hp at the dyno.
According to the owner its much easier to drive than the original hi perf 62 that he ownes. This car can the wife drive to the grocerystore, and this is a car that is doing wheelies.
I dont know much more than this yet, but I will find out and post it.
As for what the original iron block can stand, look at the 59 chevy called The Mustard. It was at the convention last fall. Blower, injected and metanol. Probably reinforced with 4 bolt mains at the bottom but anyway...

 

[raymar58409]

the latest

I'm not saying busting the block because of too much horsepower, rather getting the stroke way out there and not reinforcing the main caps.
Anyhow , I had the pleasure of visiting with Lamar last monday. Spent quite a bit of time touring his shop and examining the parts he has available. Really nice pieces. The man has spent an enormous amount of time and money to be able to make all the pieces available to put all the newest technology to work for the 409's. For instance : any piston combo, Jesel type rockers, tall rocker covers, not to mention the extensive head work, an aluminum water pump.
Soooooooooo, now we know the technology exists for the 409.
As with any custom "one of" operation it does come with a price tag, so if you find that bag of $$$ see if there are two of em.
Ray

 

[impalamike.com]

I just came across this posting from two and a half years ago. Anyone know what happened?