I spoke to Kinsler Injection about converting my Algon to EFI and we discussed a custom build 348 injection they did for a customer a while back (see pic). He said the intake was $5,500 and the injection was $3,000!:eek: compare that to a SBC!!
Kinsler Injected 348
- Thread starter impalamike.com
- Start date
If I was going to spend all that money, I might build a Z11 w/ injection - in a T Bucket. That would be fun to drive.
Efi
I know a guy that has EFI on a 409. Won't say his name, as I'm not sure he wants to do any of these. If he wants to guide aanyone, I'm sure he will speak up. I don't know how much trouble it was to do it, or how much cost was involved, but I would say it wasn't near $8500.00. I think he used a stock manifold, too.
I know a guy that has EFI on a 409. Won't say his name, as I'm not sure he wants to do any of these. If he wants to guide aanyone, I'm sure he will speak up. I don't know how much trouble it was to do it, or how much cost was involved, but I would say it wasn't near $8500.00. I think he used a stock manifold, too.
If you were going to do a Z-11 injection deal, Check out early Olds, Pontiac, or Mopar. Mechanical units. They use a valley cover so should be easier to modify. Start by sizing up differant intake gaskets. I was surprised how close Pontiacs are to Z-11 ports. Ponchos are shorter so there's some sawing and welding involved.
IgnitionMan
Banned
Man, that is a lot of buckaroos for Kinsler's pocket.
Converting an existing mechanical injector shouldn't cost any more than the processor and wiring, pump and distributor, and nozzles.
I'd suggest you look into Holley's commander 950 setup. Those boxes can be selected to run TBI, or TPI, whcich is the way you want to go, one nozzle per injector "hole, and it can also be used with computer ignition or regular ignition.
As far as mods to the mechanical injector, you would need a basic input setup, electronic nozzles in place of the mechanical ones and their accompanying fuel lines, a throttle connected potentiometer (position sensor, could be mounted in place of the barrel valve), engine temp sensor. Doing these mods shouldn't take a lot of machining, or modification to the actual AlGon injector.
The trick setup would be to mount the electronic nozzles UNDER the manifold, in the valley, and then leave the mecanical ones in place, closed off, with dummy fuel lines, to make it appear as mechanical.
Give Doug F, the moderator of the fuel injection board at chevytalk.org am e/mail. He's the guy at Holley that designed and runs the ongoing Commander 950 development project.
So far, I haven't seen a setup the Commander 950 cannot work.
Converting an existing mechanical injector shouldn't cost any more than the processor and wiring, pump and distributor, and nozzles.
I'd suggest you look into Holley's commander 950 setup. Those boxes can be selected to run TBI, or TPI, whcich is the way you want to go, one nozzle per injector "hole, and it can also be used with computer ignition or regular ignition.
As far as mods to the mechanical injector, you would need a basic input setup, electronic nozzles in place of the mechanical ones and their accompanying fuel lines, a throttle connected potentiometer (position sensor, could be mounted in place of the barrel valve), engine temp sensor. Doing these mods shouldn't take a lot of machining, or modification to the actual AlGon injector.
The trick setup would be to mount the electronic nozzles UNDER the manifold, in the valley, and then leave the mecanical ones in place, closed off, with dummy fuel lines, to make it appear as mechanical.
Give Doug F, the moderator of the fuel injection board at chevytalk.org am e/mail. He's the guy at Holley that designed and runs the ongoing Commander 950 development project.
So far, I haven't seen a setup the Commander 950 cannot work.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
One of the big deals doing a EFI from these is adding the idle air compensator to EVERY cylinder, as there is no plenum.
That 348 looks like a modern custom manifold vs a converted older one. Plus kinsler is the premium FI place, priced accordingly!
I've got a Pontiac Hilborn I'll sell!! Hilborn also does some conversionss. Some of the individuals Like Rance fuel injection may be cheaper.
Let's say you have the intake. Bungs alone are $90, then machining and welding in costs, then milling intake to be sure it's not warped. Injectors at least $250. Fuel rails and plumbing add another $100-200. High pressure regulator and pump and easy $300-500 to support a street rod.
Depending on the processor and how much data logging you want it to do to help tune the fuel curve a processor alone can be $2-3000. Just adding wide band to the Holley Commander is a $750 upgrade. Using a narrow band won't get you close on a performance vehicle.
Then there is the learning curve on using the software to tweak the fuel curve, and hope you don't mess it up!
Still it is cool and something I'l do one day.
That 348 looks like a modern custom manifold vs a converted older one. Plus kinsler is the premium FI place, priced accordingly!
I've got a Pontiac Hilborn I'll sell!! Hilborn also does some conversionss. Some of the individuals Like Rance fuel injection may be cheaper.
Let's say you have the intake. Bungs alone are $90, then machining and welding in costs, then milling intake to be sure it's not warped. Injectors at least $250. Fuel rails and plumbing add another $100-200. High pressure regulator and pump and easy $300-500 to support a street rod.
Depending on the processor and how much data logging you want it to do to help tune the fuel curve a processor alone can be $2-3000. Just adding wide band to the Holley Commander is a $750 upgrade. Using a narrow band won't get you close on a performance vehicle.
Then there is the learning curve on using the software to tweak the fuel curve, and hope you don't mess it up!
Still it is cool and something I'l do one day.
I'll guess I'll have to stick to 2-4s on my 409 stroker (see second pick). Maybe I'll wait until next year to see if all of these rumors of new heads and intakes pan out (I hope they do 
). If not I'll stick with steel heads and the factory or Lamar Walden intake (first pick). -Mike
). If not I'll stick with steel heads and the factory or Lamar Walden intake (first pick). -MikeIgnitionMan
Banned
I know one heck of a lot of people that use the Commander 950 in TPI form, and none of them, including the five that have them blow through supercharged, use the idle air bypass. I don't use one on the Holley analog ancient Pro-Jection I had on my V8 Vega, and not with the Rover TPI that replaced the TBI that was on it first. I have no idle problems, same 5 knob tuning Holley 'box", no laptop used on that oldie.
Also, every one of those people got the gist of the software and the unit dialed in in not too long a time. It isn't hard to work with at all. All it takes is a good laptop, or it can be done from a desktop if you remove the in car computer and link it to the desktop computer.
Bungs may not be needed, as the AlGon already has a form of bung, for the stock mechanical nozzles, and if not, then any good machine shop can make them from 6061 weldable aluminum bar stock, less than 2 bucks for the bar stock, and whatever the machinst wants. The EFI nozzles can be threaded for screw in, to the threaded bungs, and after that, it is only a bi9t of fabrication to finish the physical parts of the conversion, hoses and hard lines, mount for the TPS, etc.
I haven't heward of one person I have worked with spending over $2,000.00 to do the Commander 950 conversion. Granted, two grand is a bunch of bucks, but for something that works, and isn't brain surgery to tune or adapt, it's well within the price range of the home EFI builder, compared to the high zoot, 7 grand guys like Kinsler, Jackson. Blower Drive Service and others.
Also, every one of those people got the gist of the software and the unit dialed in in not too long a time. It isn't hard to work with at all. All it takes is a good laptop, or it can be done from a desktop if you remove the in car computer and link it to the desktop computer.
Bungs may not be needed, as the AlGon already has a form of bung, for the stock mechanical nozzles, and if not, then any good machine shop can make them from 6061 weldable aluminum bar stock, less than 2 bucks for the bar stock, and whatever the machinst wants. The EFI nozzles can be threaded for screw in, to the threaded bungs, and after that, it is only a bi9t of fabrication to finish the physical parts of the conversion, hoses and hard lines, mount for the TPS, etc.
I haven't heward of one person I have worked with spending over $2,000.00 to do the Commander 950 conversion. Granted, two grand is a bunch of bucks, but for something that works, and isn't brain surgery to tune or adapt, it's well within the price range of the home EFI builder, compared to the high zoot, 7 grand guys like Kinsler, Jackson. Blower Drive Service and others.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
I want to think Hilborn even has some EFI nozzles that screw in place of the mechanicals. But to use the plain jane size that has a multitude of different sizes for HP needs they need bosses. There are just alot more sizes for these, often second hand and cheaper.Injector sizes need to be adjusted to HP needs to get the correct flow needed and not over run the elctronic spray time if too small. Edelbrock uses some of the PICO injectors for some of their new systems, they are more expensive and less choices.
Holleys Commander TBI and most TPIs have a built in idle air compensator. The one I have on the bench has one. Most of the guys I talked to to do the individual stack conversions each one needs one below the butterflies.
As I said it depends on how much you want the system to do from running ignition curve as well as the fuel curve, how much data logging the rpm,O2 reading, temps, knock sensor etc to look at. The Megasquirt is not a bad build yourself unit, omne of the magazines has oen going on a project car. You can probably pick up first gen ACCEL and FAST(FElPro) units for cheaper. Those ARE what most of the racers using EFI are using due to their flexibility in tuning and logging. You need to find someone nearby with experience tuning that siftware also, otherwise it's like jumping into Windows when you've never seen a computer before. The newer "Pro" Holley software is supposed to be easier, and they have just come out with a new wideband using the Bosch sensor for cheaper than the old $750 conversion.
If you look at the response slope of a cheaper narrow band sensors(standard on the Holley and most OEM cars) its great for real close to 14.7 the stoichiometric level. BAD for rich or lean . Our performance motors need 12.5-13.3 generally.
Go to www.pro-touring.com, www.thirdgen.org and see what even a single plane manifold conversion costs to complete. Some of the guys on the Pontiac board (www.performanceyears.com)have also made the plunge and say it's not cheap even using the cheaper Megasquirt controller. But the engine response is better once tuned in.
Holleys Commander TBI and most TPIs have a built in idle air compensator. The one I have on the bench has one. Most of the guys I talked to to do the individual stack conversions each one needs one below the butterflies.
As I said it depends on how much you want the system to do from running ignition curve as well as the fuel curve, how much data logging the rpm,O2 reading, temps, knock sensor etc to look at. The Megasquirt is not a bad build yourself unit, omne of the magazines has oen going on a project car. You can probably pick up first gen ACCEL and FAST(FElPro) units for cheaper. Those ARE what most of the racers using EFI are using due to their flexibility in tuning and logging. You need to find someone nearby with experience tuning that siftware also, otherwise it's like jumping into Windows when you've never seen a computer before. The newer "Pro" Holley software is supposed to be easier, and they have just come out with a new wideband using the Bosch sensor for cheaper than the old $750 conversion.
If you look at the response slope of a cheaper narrow band sensors(standard on the Holley and most OEM cars) its great for real close to 14.7 the stoichiometric level. BAD for rich or lean . Our performance motors need 12.5-13.3 generally.
Go to www.pro-touring.com, www.thirdgen.org and see what even a single plane manifold conversion costs to complete. Some of the guys on the Pontiac board (www.performanceyears.com)have also made the plunge and say it's not cheap even using the cheaper Megasquirt controller. But the engine response is better once tuned in.
IgnitionMan
Banned
I've done just at 40 EFI conversions on a few different port injectors, and none have had idle bypass air circuits, electronic and/or physical, installed, and they idle and off idle just fine. When I EFI'd my Vega, with the all aluminum 215, I heard lots of banter about this and that, injecvtor too large for a 215 at 670 cfm's, you have to do this, you have to do that, but, it worked well, and I even closed the whole idle air controller passage completely off in the throttle body, no adverse condition was created, it idled nice, didn't stumble off idle, got upwards of 28 mpg on the road, 22 in town. What's not a winning setup with that.
The best mechanical to EFI ones were two Crower 8 luggers, the worst was one Jackson-Tecalumet. They don't fart, belch, backfire, miss, hesitate, they are also really streetable, and they just work really well.
The most fun ones were the two live mechanical two and four port Hilborn's for the blowers, for the street.
All I did was apply my 35 years experience with both mechanical and electronic injection systems and it was no big deal to get weither type working great. I did all the injector work on my old rqace car, an AA/FA, nitro car, and also was a factory GM Rochester FI tech, along with the newer electronics stuff too.
This stuff just isn't as hard to get right as some would want others to believe.
The best mechanical to EFI ones were two Crower 8 luggers, the worst was one Jackson-Tecalumet. They don't fart, belch, backfire, miss, hesitate, they are also really streetable, and they just work really well.
The most fun ones were the two live mechanical two and four port Hilborn's for the blowers, for the street.
All I did was apply my 35 years experience with both mechanical and electronic injection systems and it was no big deal to get weither type working great. I did all the injector work on my old rqace car, an AA/FA, nitro car, and also was a factory GM Rochester FI tech, along with the newer electronics stuff too.
This stuff just isn't as hard to get right as some would want others to believe.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Ignitionman, from you experience it's probably not too hard. For the rest of who have been changing jets, squirters etc for years it is a whole new world. I've talked to too many guys who got one that could barely get it running,sometimes hard to pull it up on the trailer to get to someone that knows what they are doing.
I'm just going by what ALOT of guys using it have told me.
I'm just going by what ALOT of guys using it have told me.
IgnitionMan
Banned
Any and every injection system manufacturer have tech info and assistance to get them right, and mostly, these services are free. No reason one can't be set up and made very right, even by those with a regular knowledge of mechanics.
All it usually takes is the right pump, nozzles and barrel balve settings and the mechanical injection works just ine in any situation you want to run it in.
There is one heck of a lot more info on how to set them up now, than back when I started working with them, that is for darned sure.
All it usually takes is the right pump, nozzles and barrel balve settings and the mechanical injection works just ine in any situation you want to run it in.
There is one heck of a lot more info on how to set them up now, than back when I started working with them, that is for darned sure.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Prices from Summit Holley TBI $1439 has the Commander but not the wide band update you put on your intake.
Holley SBC Stealth ram multi port $2599 not wide band
ACCEL SBC single plane multiport $2599
Edelbrocks system that uses a PROM so not as flexible $2100
these are all with basline fuel pumps and baseline injectors.
When you start looking at all the options in the software to change on the pulse width, which size injectors advance curve there is alot to mess up and often they just come with a generic fuel curve in them. I've just talked with too many guys that are knowledgable and it takes them awhile to dial it in because every engine has it's own individual requirements. It's not as easy as a bolt on intake and carb setup.
Holley SBC Stealth ram multi port $2599 not wide band
ACCEL SBC single plane multiport $2599
Edelbrocks system that uses a PROM so not as flexible $2100
these are all with basline fuel pumps and baseline injectors.
When you start looking at all the options in the software to change on the pulse width, which size injectors advance curve there is alot to mess up and often they just come with a generic fuel curve in them. I've just talked with too many guys that are knowledgable and it takes them awhile to dial it in because every engine has it's own individual requirements. It's not as easy as a bolt on intake and carb setup.
IgnitionMan
Banned
Let's see, Commander 950 EFI,
One fellow in New Jersey witha 360 Dodge, 30 minutes withnhis laptop to get his dialed in. TBI. Hazardoud waste fqcility manager.
Another in Walnut, Ca., with his laptop as well, this one is a little different, Olds 442 with 455, and McCullock blow through supercharger, 30 minutes. TPI, This poerson also has a later model TBI Suburban he did the Edelbrock TBI tp TPI conversion on, and can't get the software to run the system right. His son has a C950, TPI, big block Ford, also, less than 30 minutes dial in time. Father, procurement manager for Rite-Aid Drug Stores, son, university student.
Louis Do, Southern California, 4 EFI international Harvester carryall and trucks, all 4, less than 40 minutes, and one with Affordable Injection recommended on the 'bionder Bulletin, which still doesn't run right, because their software just doesn't work (It'll be a Commander 950 soon). All are TPI. Accountant
NONE of these people work in the automotive or computer fields, and they got it done right off the bat. And, the fellow at Holley that designed and revises the C950, is easy to access for assistance. This is unlike the other system techs.
I'd say it isn't as hard to do for the average Joe, than it is being made out to be. Heck, if I can get it done, it has to be very dirt simple.
Sounds like some people are trying to make this stuff sound too techincal so the average guy will be scared into having only high dollar people work on it.
I don't know what the issues are with other systems, but if many on other sites that claim to be "expeerts" are having sooooo much trouble, maybe they are the problem, not the systems involved.
One fellow in New Jersey witha 360 Dodge, 30 minutes withnhis laptop to get his dialed in. TBI. Hazardoud waste fqcility manager.
Another in Walnut, Ca., with his laptop as well, this one is a little different, Olds 442 with 455, and McCullock blow through supercharger, 30 minutes. TPI, This poerson also has a later model TBI Suburban he did the Edelbrock TBI tp TPI conversion on, and can't get the software to run the system right. His son has a C950, TPI, big block Ford, also, less than 30 minutes dial in time. Father, procurement manager for Rite-Aid Drug Stores, son, university student.
Louis Do, Southern California, 4 EFI international Harvester carryall and trucks, all 4, less than 40 minutes, and one with Affordable Injection recommended on the 'bionder Bulletin, which still doesn't run right, because their software just doesn't work (It'll be a Commander 950 soon). All are TPI. Accountant
NONE of these people work in the automotive or computer fields, and they got it done right off the bat. And, the fellow at Holley that designed and revises the C950, is easy to access for assistance. This is unlike the other system techs.
I'd say it isn't as hard to do for the average Joe, than it is being made out to be. Heck, if I can get it done, it has to be very dirt simple.
Sounds like some people are trying to make this stuff sound too techincal so the average guy will be scared into having only high dollar people work on it.
I don't know what the issues are with other systems, but if many on other sites that claim to be "expeerts" are having sooooo much trouble, maybe they are the problem, not the systems involved.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
I've got a Commander TBI new in box that I was going to pull the injector pods off and use it as the TB for a multi port unit using one of the Pontiac Edelbrock intakes for a Pontiac project or keeping the TBI for the 09 project using one of my aluminum single quad intakes.
Hopefully you are right! I have heard the Holley guys are pretty good help.
Hopefully you are right! I have heard the Holley guys are pretty good help.