Starting new engine this week lifter question

[Junky]

Reading this thread is like going to the movies,can't wait until the end.

Hell, this is like a mystery thriller. You have no idea who is going to be killed, and by whom. You don't even know if the mystery is going to be solved. This thread is good for another 15 - 20 pages!

Now, my suggestion would be to scrap the transmission oil soaking, and spray the pistons both top and bottom with Deep Creep, and see if it comes loose. If they are cast iron rings, the Deep Creep will probably set this baby free. You don't want to be trying to break the pistons loose with a block of wood and a hammer, unless you absolutely have to. Time on the engine stand is free, so don't be in any rush to start dismantling anything, until you exhaust all possibilities. Hell, I have another 19 suggestions after this one, and I am only going to give them to you one at a time. We have to be closing in on the 20th page, before I will start spilling the rust, I mean the beans, I mean suggestions.

 

[Don Jacks]

 

[Iowa409]

OK, Major update:
I started tearing it down tonight, figured I better just start from scratch.

There is major/major issues.............

Rear Main bearing/oil cap, 5 large groves in the crank, bearings spun, tore up, rods for cylinder 4 and 5 bent, hitting the side wall of the motor on each revolution, will not even rotate. There was no rust in the cylinders, so soaking would have got me no where quick. Rings were debris free and looked new.

Crank does not appear to be correct crank, I'll check it out at the machine shop when I get it there to confirm that.

I think it was recently rebuilt, and the bearing was spun shortly after fire up, all the pistons look great (BK brand)

My guess is this motor was ran hard and destroyed and was sold to me as rebuilt, because I think it was rebuilt, then destroyed.


I paid $6K for the motor, so If I put another $2K in it to rebuild it, I will be still sitting ok, most parts are still good, but might need a crank, in fact I am sure of it, couple of rods, heads look freshly rebuilt, valves look to be brand new.


The weird thing is all the bearings and caps still have a black colored builders grease still? I cannot imagine someone putting it together like that for sure, a bit of a scratch your head moment, who knows why people do the stuff they do.

Now on a interesting note, I have never ever tore down a 409, or seen the inside of one before, so that was cool to see, but there are apparently different size push rod tubes, 8 short, eight long? Beefy 3/4" bolts for the mains.

I need a good recommendation for a good motor assembly book, completely different on the inside of a small block for sure.


really sucks but at least I see the issues and why it would not spin

 

[Junky]

It is big time sleazy to sell someone an engine as "rebuilt" if you know that it is torn up internally. To me, it sounds like someone started the engine to break in the cam, and something went terribly wrong. I think that you will need to figure out what went wrong to do that much damage on start up. It certainly didn't happen with your attempt to crank it over.

 

[Iowa409]

agreed, but all I can do is move forward, I wont make any decisions until my machine shop looks everything over.
The cylinders look amazing clean and just like they were honed yesterday., the seals all look brand new, looks like the rings are all custom filed to fit

somebody done amazing work inside of here, but perhaps like you said, it may have happened on cam break in. there certainly is not much run time on this motor. The odd thing is I have all the mains off the motor now, timing chain is removed, the crank is still connected by 4 pistons still, because even though its in that situation, I still cannot get the crank to turn, with the other 4 pistons connected to the crank I can lift up the crank a good 1/4"

 

[Junky]

Unbolt all the caps, and keep each one together in a marked plastic bag. Then see if you can push some of the pistons up and out of the way. The bent rods are going to be a problem, depending on how bent they are. If they are twisted around like a pretzel, then you might have to have the machine shop cut them loose. Without pictures, it is difficult to say. You might be best to leave the rest of the disassembly to the machine shop, because they have probably seen this before, and can possibly figure out what went wrong. I would make a call to the rebuilder, and ask what they know about the destruction. Explain that you are the second owner, and only want suggestions, and that you are not blaming them. You don't blow up a newly built engine, and not mention it to the shop that did the work. They should remember the incident.

 

[DonSSDD]

Take lots of pics of things before you take them apart, knowing what it looked like before you touched it can be a real help later when figuring out what was done wrong.
Post pics of the damage here.

Any numbers on the crank?

 

[RussC]

Bent rods...spun bearings...clean cylinders..??? What's the chances the motor was hydrauliced on fuel?

 

[blkblk63ss]

Aw shit, I didn't see that coming!!!!!

What did I tell ya!!!!!

 

[Iowa409]

I don't know what good it would do to contact Randy Machine shop in Athens, IL. where it was built, (1) I have had the motor sitting in my garage for 3 years, (2) It really looks like it was built really well, very top notch build, if I am being honest. What I am thinking happened was it was built, then sold whoever bought it damaged it on start up during the Cam break in, and then it got sold to me as rebuilt, and it was technically, I mean there is builders grease in all the caps, bearings etc. this motor has not ran long for sure. When I get home from work tonight I am going to try to figure out how to get the crank out of this thing, I have the number 1,3,2,4 pistons out, but the other four are wedged against the block tighter than hell.

All main bearings and caps are off the engine, so the crank is just sitting in the half bearing with the last four rods and pistons connected, it will not budge, I can lift the crank up about a 1/4 inch in the front. I may have to cut the rods to get it free, they are bent any ways, so its not like they can be re-used. All in all, A good core is about 4-6K to buy now days, so, the 6k I have in it so far is fine, but it was the way it was sold to me that bothers me so much, as rebuilt, ready to bolt in and go.

 

[Fathead Racing]

I don't know what good it would do to contact Randy Machine shop in Athens, IL. where it was built, (1) I have had the motor sitting in my garage for 3 years, (2) It really looks like it was built really well, very top notch build, if I am being honest. What I am thinking happened was it was built, then sold whoever bought it damaged it on start up during the Cam break in, and then it got sold to me as rebuilt, and it was technically, I mean there is builders grease in all the caps, bearings etc. this motor has not ran long for sure. When I get home from work tonight I am going to try to figure out how to get the crank out of this thing, I have the number 1,3,2,4 pistons out, but the other four are wedged against the block tighter than hell.

All main bearings and caps are off the engine, so the crank is just sitting in the half bearing with the last four rods and pistons connected, it will not budge, I can lift the crank up about a 1/4 inch in the front. I may have to cut the rods to get it free, they are bent any ways, so its not like they can be re-used. All in all, A good core is about 4-6K to buy now days, so, the 6k I have in it so far is fine, but it was the way it was sold to me that bothers me so much, as rebuilt, ready to bolt in and go.

Could have been a dry startup. No oil prime.

 

[Don Jacks]

Well,best of luck with it,There's plenty of help here when you do get to the point of building it back.Does this engine have cast or forged pistons in it?

 

[Iowa409]

Fathead, I thought about that too, but it was wet as hell in there with oil, a little hard to bend two rods and have a spun bearing turning it over by hand wouldn't you think? AND at this point, it makes no difference, it has to be fixed, also somewhere in the post above I stated I got the motor to prime up, it was tough on the passenger side but it did eventually prime up.



Don, thank you, they are BK brand aluminum, so I have not looked closely at them yet, I would venture to guess cast.

They told me when I talked the motor shop, (about a year ago) the guy who they do the work for, who I bought it from, just does the bare minimum stuff, everything goes back in stock, or the lowest price which ever is lower.

I am trying to figure out for the life of me how that rear main bearing is so seized up, every other bearing I pulled out looks like it just came out of the box? I have seen crank's get tight after assy, but for it to be laying in there only on the lower 1/2 of the bearings and not wanting to move is kind of crazy, I am starting to wonder about that, once its all apart and on my guys table, he will tell me just whats/what with it.

 

[La Hot Rods]

My guess , is it had some trash come from the pump or filter housing or passage.
Tough hit for you, keep at it. The reward is worth it, well at least in my book.

 

[Don Jacks]

What is this engine going in,and what are your performance goals for it? Now is the time to make things better,and it shouldn't be expensive from this point,but there are a couple of areas,like deck height that are likely to need addressing.Which intake and carb are you using? 817 heads?

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

James can confirm that one cannot trust even the most "qualified" machine shops for their "expertise".

Couple years back he and I were in Tulsa, OK and we picked up a 656 short block that had been bored, honed and assembled at a "reputable" machine shop (using forged KB-Ikon pistons). The owners had drag cars and stated that this fellow had done all their engines, and were familiar with 409s, having done a number of them as well. Just a while back James got curious and went to double check the bottom end. Guess what he found? One rod was installed facing the wrong way!

More recently we've been struggling with a fresh build for my Impala SS car. We snatched the stroker engine out of that (to go in the BA409 car after being freshened up) and are replacing it with a more "period correct" 068 QB block with freshened up 690 heads. I had the bottom end done by Tony Shaffer of Day Automotive fame but had the top end done locally. And while it as at that second (local) shop I figured why not have them finish the assembly of the top end. That was my big mistake. First off, he stuck a SBC oil pump rod in thinking it was the correct length. Unfortunately did not find that out until we had already installed the engine in the bay and hooked up the trans, etc. Out she came and back on the stand. Having corrected that, and pre-oiled her on the stand, we stuck her back in. Next came the pressure test and 9 of the 16 screw in studs leaked . When I took all 16 out James noticed one had already been in use . Ordered a new set, cleaned up the threads and re-installed the new 7/16" studs. Pressure check showed they held but I started getting water seepage in #3 cylinder. Got side tracked by a surgical procedure but hope to address that leak next. Hoping it's only a few of the ARP head bolts that he didn't seal properly (since he skimped on the Teflon sealer on the studs).

The moral of the story is not all machine shops are created equally, and never to trust someone else's work. Or at least double check everything.

TomK

 

[Iowa409]

What is this engine going in,and what are your performance goals for it? Now is the time to make things better,and it shouldn't be expensive from this point,but there are a couple of areas,like deck height that are likely to need addressing.Which intake and carb are you using? 817 heads?

Don, yes let me address a couple of your questions.
true 1964 409 passenger 340 HSP motor, yes 817 heads all fresh and redone, they look very nice, new stainless valves, its going into my 1964 Impala SS, its been a labor of love, from the ground up, let me say the engine came first, then the car came after, so everything is built around the engine, well the car is about done at paint and body shop, coming home soon.

Expectations for the motor: well its a low performance motor, I know this, so serious racing was never my goal. I am very easy on motors, I drive like an old grandpa, I have never rebuilt a motor because it failed from my account, I think if you hammer on them, you better get your wallet out.

My Best friend had one in his 63 impala when we were kids, I always loved everything about the motor, especially the sound and the way the exhaust valves hit and give it that unique sound.

My friends around me are building blown 454's with nitrous, pushing 700-800 HSP, thats not my thing.

I want a torque monster, but not necessarily a high HP car, I have already installed the 4:11 gears, I have got everything needed for the 4 speed conversion, down to springs, pedals, flywheel, etc, its a complete 4 speed set up, Muncie M21, close ration 4 speed.

I do not want to go to dual carbs, I have thought about changing out the stock intake, I am running Dougs Tri Headers, I am running a serpentine system from march performance, with add on AC and P/S, 2 ea 12" electric fans, 3 core aluminum radiator.

The car is so big and so heavy, I do not know how to make it street drivable and fast at the same time, but street drivable is the winner in that catergory, myself and my grandfather who has a 56 International pick up, all nice.... him and I plan to go to local car shows and meet ups and talk to other peolpe who have the love of the old stuff, gives us together time and puts a smile on both of our faces. I am running Super 10 Exhaust, its going to be very noticable, not a quiet car.

I know I need two rods, I know I'll need a crank, I know everything else looks to be in great shape, but I'll let the machine shop tell me.

So, at this stage what can be done to beef it up a bit?

 

[Iowa409]

My guess , is it had some trash come from the pump or filter housing or passage.
Tough hit for you, keep at it. The reward is worth it, well at least in my book.

La Hot Rods, that could be a real possibility, hopefully tonight when I get home (I work second shift) if I can see whats under that crank in the bearing pocket, that should explain a lot, ...........and yes I'm no Quitter ,lol................I'll get it together one way or the other, I want the 409 in my car, no if and buts about it!!! When you plan a budget from beginning to end and you have a UNKNOWN, it just makes it no fun, but in the end it will bring a smile to my face, then the cost is worth it.

 

[Ishiftem]

I could be mistaken on this but I don't think so. If too long a bolt is used for the oil pump, it will contact the back of the bearing and force it into the crank. I know its possible on a sbc. As for bent rods, Its some type of mechanical interference. If it hydrauliced, there would be a lot of fuel or coolant in the oil. Good luck!

 

[Don Jacks]

Ok,Using the same pistons,finding the crank and a couple of stock rods shouldn't be too hard.Once that's done,have the assembly balanced.Mock it up and measure the piston/deck height to find out where you are regarding your quench area.The block may very well need decking with the available head gaskets today.You must have an area of less than .060 here,or you're going to have detonation issues.Once decked,cleaned,it'll likely need cam bearings since they'll have to be removed for cleaning after the machine work is done.Now the short block will be ready to assemble.I'd upgrade the cam to a grind from Show Cars.The cam I'd use here is the 0950.The valve springs will have to be changed,but nothing else,other than lubing up the valve stems should be needed.The stock iron intake is ok,but an Edelbrock Performer RPM single 4bbl.intake will be about 20-25 hp stronger.I'd recommend a Street Demon carb of 625 cfm.With this cam, the Eddie intake and Street Demon carb,along with the planned headers,this engine will be an idle-5,500 rpm engine with very strong low-mid range torque,and actually make about 375-385 hp.It'll be a package that's extremely fun to drive,and you won't need to buzz it up at all,especially with your 4.11 gears.