Pulleys not lining up

[Carmine]

Hi everyone. The saga continues. Here is what I have:

1-dual groove 409 water pump pulley that I bought used.
2-dual groove 409 crankshaft pulley that I just bought at Show cars.
3-sbc power steering pump that I bought the 409 brackets for mounting purposes.

I hope the pics are good enough to see what I am talking about. The power steering pump pulley is out a good belt width from lining up with anything.
The inner crankshaft pulley groove might line up with the inner groove of the water pump pulley. Its close but I don't think perfect. The outer groove of the crank shaft pulley doesn't line up with anything. Its off about 1/2 the width of the fan belt from lining up.
The water pump pulley is included in the above.

Even if they did line up, there is still something wrong. I don't think you could get a match book cover between them. They are that close. Because of the closeness, I don't know how you could ever change a belt without taking everything apart. The new crankshaft pulley measures I believe 6.75 inches. Didn't measure the water pump pulley. I think I have the power steering brackets on properly. Everything seemed to line up (bolt holes).
I also think the harmonic balancer is on properly.
Any ideas, suggestions or pics which be appreciated. Many thanks, Carmine.

 

[Phil Reed]

Incorrect balancer? ???

 

[Don Jacks]

Carmine,I think that Phil once posted[someone did so we'll blame him] that the P/S pulley is 409 specific.Check with show cars,I believe that you get shims or spacers to correct the alignment issues between the water pump and crank pulleys.Another alternative might be to press the water pump flange further in.When correct,the w/p pulley almost touches the pump its self,but I can't really tell from your pictures as to how far out it is.There are a couple of different flange specs for these engines making this conversion a little tougher than it needs to be.

 

[Fathead Racing]

The water pump pulley are normally close. Where did you get the harmonic balancer?

 

[Fathead Racing]

Carmine,I think that Phil once posted[someone did so we'll blame him] that the P/S pulley is 409 specific.Check with show cars,I belive that you get shims or spacers to correct the alignment issues between.Another alternative might be to press the water pump flange further in.When correct,the w/p pulley almost touches the pump its self,but I can't really tell from your pictures as to how far out it is.There are a couple of different flange specs for these engines making this conversion a little tougher than it needs to be.

Good call Don.

 

[real61ss]

That looks like a low horse 348 balancer

 

[oldskydog]

Are both pulleys deep groove? looks kinda like maybe deep on top and small on bottom. What are the part numbers of the pulleys?
That definitely look like a 348 balancer and the ps pulley should be cast spoke.

 

[Wes McCallum]

It's hard to see the alinement, but I know the p/s pump pulley is a 3 spoke cast for the 409, I had made the same mistake when I added P/S to my car. The harmonic balancer for the 409 should be 1 1/4 inch wide. 2 pulley on the bottom and 2 pulley on the top.
Forward groove for the pump, aft for alternator.

 

[Carmine]

When I bought the short block, it didn't have a balancer. I asked the guy to throw one in and he did. I don't know what the balancer is originally from. I'll have to compare what mine looks like to an advertised 409 one.
I bought the power steering pump pulley from Show Cars. Its my understanding, wrong as it may be, that the 3 spoke cast iron pulley is for the high performance 409. I told them what I had when I ordered. The only reason I replaced the old pulley is because it was bent and I thought it might throw a belt. The old and new are identical in size. I bought the brackets from them to mount the sbc power steering pump to the 409 block. No mention made about changing the pulley to cast iron.

I'll measure the balancer. But the 1.25" width, would that be the surface of where the timing mark is?

I don't think neither are deep groove pulleys. I can get the part number off of them. When I ordered the csp, I didn't specify the deep groove one.

The water pump pulley and crankshaft pulley as I mentioned are extremely close. I don't think more then the thickness of a matchbook separates them from contact. I'll try to take a pic. Lets say I do have the wrong balancer but correct wpp and csp. A new correct balancer might align the pulleys but it wouldn't necessarily correct this closeness. Would that be accurate?? Thank you, Carmine.

 

[63impalass409]

My 340 hp car has a cast power steering pulley

 

[Carmine]

Just measured my harmonic balancer. Its 6.25" in diameter and 1 1/8" wide. From what I read in Shows Car, this balancer is for the 348 hi and low perf. and the low perf. 409. Not sure why it doesn't work. It appears that I have the wrong balancer. The one I need I believe to be 6.75 ". I also stand corrected on the power steering pulley. I do need a cast iron on. Must have misread it. If I'm wrong on these 2 items, someone kindly correct me. If I have it right, I'm going to have to purchase these two items. I can get them at Show Cars but I'd like to keep business with members first. If anyone has these items used, please pm me and hopefully we can do some business. I'm also going to advertise in the Wanted section. Thank you, Carmine.

 

[Wes McCallum]

Carmine,
I think you going in the right direction. Just to clarify, I could only measure my balancer on the engine, so I do not have the overall length, but it does measure 1.25 inches across at the timing mark. Take into consideration that my car is the 425 HP 409

 

[Carmine]

It does help but I don't understand some of this being a novice. I just checked the harmonic balancer and the keyway on the crank is opposite the timing mark on the balancer. So, since these are opposite, are you saying that my present balancer is a correct 348/409 balancer??? I guess my motor was run on the dyno with a "W" engine balancer?? I can understand shimming out the pulleys but the ps pulley is too far out to even think about shimming. Maybe with the proper cast iron pulley, this would be different. I'd have to check my pics but I do believe the short block came with a timing cover already attached. I'm assuming its the proper one, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

Is the balancer crankshaft keyway groove inline with the the line (timing mark) cut across the outer ring of the balancer? If not, the outer ring is rotating on the balancer hub. NOT GOOD.

Yes, the groove on the outer ring is in line with the crankshaft key way.

 

[Rickys61]

Yes, the groove on the outer ring is in line with the crankshaft key way.

When I did my engine last year, I used a NOS 409 340HP balancer. When I stood the 348 balancer next to it, the pulley surfaces were the same height. I think as long as your balancer is on the crank far enough, the alignment issue shouldn't be there... Also, the water pump pulley I used was two pieces and everything lined up really nice with the idler pulley and generator. I got the generator brackets from Show Cars.
Rick

 

[Carmine]

My wpp is a 2 groove but 1 piece. Suppose to be for a 409. Not sure its even possible, but could you measure your pulley from outside groove to outside groove. Where did you get yours from?? Thanks Rick. I just ordered what I think is the correct harmonic balancer and the power steering cast iron pulley from Show Cars. Just left the garage and have to say that there is something just not right. I have to be missing something somewhere. I can't seem to get a handle on it. I sit and study this for a good half hour at a time, many times, and still walk away confused. Lets just say the wpp and csp both line up perfectly. The bottom of the wpp and the top of the csp are only separated by 71 thousands of an inch. I used my feeler gauges for this. And how in the heck would ever get or change a fan belt without making it a major project by having to take something completely apart?? Just doesn't make sense to me. The new harmonic balancer is about 1/8" wider and may very well push the csp out for a better alignment. But, I don't see how it will change the closeness of the pulleys or installing belts. Not sure but I don't think GM designed it that way; or did they?? Unless I figure out something else or someone suggest something, guess I'll wait until the new parts arrive and make those changes. I just don't see anything significant happening, Carmine.

Also, I already ordered the spoked cast iron power steering pulley for the 409, but can someone tell me the difference between that and the solid steel one??? Thanks.

 

[real61ss]

The solid steel PS pulley aligns to the low horse water and crank pulleys. From your decription you have the correct high horse water and crank pulleys and you need the 3 spoke cast iron PS pulley to go with them.
BTW, the crank and the water pump pulleys should be very close together.

 

[real61ss]

Carmine.
Maybe this will help you understand the difference in the high and low horse pulleys. The photo with the chrome valve covers is of course the 409, the low horse is my 305 /348.

 

[Carmine]

Thanks Tommy. Last year I went to a local show and saw a '62 409 that had been meticulously restored. This car was outstanding. Took may photos of it to possibly use as a reference. This pulley issue has me troubled so I just looked at these pics. Not sure what I captured exactly. But, there it was. Several picks of the engine compartment and pulleys. He was running a generator and no power steering. But at least I saw how everything aligned. I can't believe I tormented myself thinking how the fan belts go on. I was so concerned about the tolerances and how the belts go on that I forgot they are installed and go around from the outside; not underneath. The tolerances are fine. I can't believe I confused myself so much. Gosh, I hate to be ignorant in front of so many people. My father once said there was no sense in being stupid unless you show it. I think he was right. So, pardon my confusion or lack of understanding. I'm going to wait for the new parts to arrive and go from there. Many thanks to everyone for your responses and patience, Carmine.

 

[oldskydog]

All 62 409's were solid lifter high HP and used the same balancer as 63-65 high HP like this:




The low hp 63-65 balancer was like this:




Make sure your water pump has the proper depth on the pulley hub: