HAMB has too many subject matters going on at once. We all stray into other makes, models and years but HAMB is trying to do it all.
Bayer Z-11
- Thread starter 409Kid
- Start date
Greg Reimer
Well Known Member
I have the feeling that when we go to heaven, we'll walk in the front office door to check in, and we'll pass this display on the way to the desk.
I can’t believe the way they attack some of the lesser informed………It’s ridiculous …….Internet Bullies
409Kid
Well Known Member
My singular question was simple..I had what remains of the Bayer Z-11. Did anyone know who the owner of the Ranger ll car was when the pics were taken? The participants in that thread were clearly the “less informed” and the attacks were directed at me in my quest to get more history on the car. They continually went off topic. Those who chose to nit pick my every word and make negative comments just took the wind out of my sails and I asked the moderator to delete the thread. Ends up the moderator was the worst offender. Live and learn.
A Yenko.com moderator gave me the lead on Cheryl Bader and it turned out to be a delightful contact. I’d like to meet this lady as she had a genuine interest in the project. I wish I had an unlimited budget to simply fastrack this oroject for obvious reasons. She has shown many classic Chevrolet Muscle cars in her dealership showroom over the years. The Yenko.com moderator’s restored very first ‘67 Camaro Z/28 was one such example.
I’ll continue my search for the ownership lineage of the Bader car and whatever additional history I can find. If my findings lead me toward information on other cars I will pass it along to help those on this forum…
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409Kid
Well Known Member
I’m going to start my search for pieces to build the engine for the car’s resurrection. I wish I still had all my old 409 block stashed away as I likely could have come up with a suitable casting date for the block. Unfortunately I sold 40 some odd HP engine cores to some guy in L.A. back in the late ‘80s to help finance my college education. Did the original engines use a ‘62 “X” block? Or were they likely “‘63 block castings” with no “X”? What month casting should I be looking for if I go searching for a suitable core? Jack Bayer took delivery of his Z-11 in Jan ‘63 from what I’ve come up with. I’d like to find a block that would be date code feasible for my build. I also need an original water pump, and would either like to find original reciprocating pieces ie crank, rods, balancer, flywheel or I’m going to need to go after market and likely build a “482cid stroker to mimic what was in the car when it was match raced.
For those who have built or had Z-11 engines built would you be willing to share who manufactured your pistons and would be willing to share the work orders/specs. I have no pistons examples to work from.
I’ve noticed in pics that the original balancers had a huge pork chop on the inside of the hub. I am assuming the engines were externally balanced like a 454 . I’m also assuming that the flywheels were not std 409 either. Can someone set me straight on this ? If I’m going to end up having to go a stroker route none of this matters except for basic piston design specs to draw from.
The engine build will be first on the list of expenditures and I could certainly use any help in this regard. As I search for a suitable donor car I can use my ‘62 as a test bed
I still don’t know what the camshaft I received with this acquisition is all about. Obviously starting out as a CWC casting but the lobes are really wild and they appear to be more of a roller design than a solid lifter. Beyond the heavy AE stamp there is a partial stamping suggesting it was earmarked for a Z 11. Certainly a custom grind but I don’t know who manufactured it or what the specs are at this time. If anyone has a clue, please let me know.
No new historical leads to report yet. Been preoccupied with other matters.
For those who have built or had Z-11 engines built would you be willing to share who manufactured your pistons and would be willing to share the work orders/specs. I have no pistons examples to work from.
I’ve noticed in pics that the original balancers had a huge pork chop on the inside of the hub. I am assuming the engines were externally balanced like a 454 . I’m also assuming that the flywheels were not std 409 either. Can someone set me straight on this ? If I’m going to end up having to go a stroker route none of this matters except for basic piston design specs to draw from.
The engine build will be first on the list of expenditures and I could certainly use any help in this regard. As I search for a suitable donor car I can use my ‘62 as a test bed
I still don’t know what the camshaft I received with this acquisition is all about. Obviously starting out as a CWC casting but the lobes are really wild and they appear to be more of a roller design than a solid lifter. Beyond the heavy AE stamp there is a partial stamping suggesting it was earmarked for a Z 11. Certainly a custom grind but I don’t know who manufactured it or what the specs are at this time. If anyone has a clue, please let me know.
No new historical leads to report yet. Been preoccupied with other matters.
Greg Reimer
Well Known Member
The 409 blocks with the X on the front were real late 62 through 65 blocks.They had somewhat better cylinder wall thicknesses and more mass around the main webs around the main cap bolts. They definitely are the first thing I'd look for. The 340 horse 409 in 63-65 had those blocks. Definitely use an X block. No point putting in killer main caps in a block with weak webbing. I would get a steel stroker crank, standard 409 main bearing diameters, if you go with a 3.76 stroke crank, use a 6.135" big block Chevy steel rod and a big block pin.It's shorter and lighter than a 409 pin.Don't use a GM rod.Get a Manley rod or a high strength aftermarket steel rod. Definitely bush the small end, and with whatever piston you need, you want to float the pin. Very good BBC lighter than stock pins aid in balancing this thing, Get whatever light piston you choose, for a front balancer, get the BBC unit that's steel, not cast, and try to arrive at a motor that will balance in the pan, not relying on external weights in the balancer or flywheel. Definitely have a race engine builder fill the water jackets with a good block filler up to the bottom of the freeze plug bores. That keeps the cylinder walls rounder, the main bearing bore centers straighter, and it still leaves capacity for adequate coolant flow. Boring the engine 060" with the 3.76 stroke gives you a 452 inch motor, a 4" stroke 454 type of thing would be 482. You could go into the house moving business with one of those. A steel roller cam is practically a must these days, and with the Z-11 heads, it would move enough air to probably make 650 horsepower right off. Putting it in a 3250 pound car with the right drive train and suspension would get it into the 9's. Keep the piston and pin weight as low as you cn get it without compromising reliability and that leaves more power to move the car instead of using it to combat inertia.
Sounds like a fun project. If you somehow found an original Z-11 block, I wouldn't use it. The correct QM suffix on the block makes it invaluable to a serious collector.
Have fun with your project!!
Sounds like a fun project. If you somehow found an original Z-11 block, I wouldn't use it. The correct QM suffix on the block makes it invaluable to a serious collector.
Have fun with your project!!
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When I built my motor Ross pistons had the blueprints for the original z11 pistons as the intake valve pocket is moved more towards the center so I went that route with them and you can pick your compression ratio. Be warned from the time my machine shop told me what overbore I needed it took almost a year to get the pistons and I built my motor a year ago. Best of luck on your venture.
409Kid
Well Known Member
I was doing a google search earlier today and came across a couple of snippets.
This was on onallcylinders a Summit Racing website. I’ve taken portions from it and included it here. (Hopefully I’m not infringing on any copyrights )
Hooker said in a SEMA Hall of Fame inductee interview…
“After joining the U.S. National Guard and serving six months of active duty, the 20-year-old Hooker started his first full-time job as an electronics technician. His paychecks were enough for him to afford a brand-new 1962 Chevrolet 409… Within two hours, a legend was born… Hooker had the cylinder heads off of his new car almost immediately upon getting it home. Because he couldn’t afford to buy aftermarket headers, he was forced to design and make his own—their prominent feature being that the header tubes were longer and featured larger diameters than was typical for early ‘60s headers.
A man named Jack Bayer owned a dyno shop, and Hooker took his 409 there to have it dyno-tuned before taking it to the racetrack. As Hooker tells it, Bayer was just finishing up with another customer running the same Chevy engine when he arrived.
When Hooker’s made more horsepower, Bayer looked at him and said: “It’s got to be those headers. Can you get me some of those?” Hooker told him those were the only ones in existence, but that he would take them off his car and sell them to Bayer if he could get a ride home later.
“I more or less went into business right then,”
I’m assuming those headers went on Jacks ‘62 Impala SS/S and may have then been put on the Z-11.
Here’s a pic of Jack Bayer’s / Bill Bader Chevrolet Impala running against Hayden Proffit’s / Cone Chevrolet Sport Belair at the ‘62 Winternationals
This was on onallcylinders a Summit Racing website. I’ve taken portions from it and included it here. (Hopefully I’m not infringing on any copyrights )
Hooker said in a SEMA Hall of Fame inductee interview…
“After joining the U.S. National Guard and serving six months of active duty, the 20-year-old Hooker started his first full-time job as an electronics technician. His paychecks were enough for him to afford a brand-new 1962 Chevrolet 409… Within two hours, a legend was born… Hooker had the cylinder heads off of his new car almost immediately upon getting it home. Because he couldn’t afford to buy aftermarket headers, he was forced to design and make his own—their prominent feature being that the header tubes were longer and featured larger diameters than was typical for early ‘60s headers.
A man named Jack Bayer owned a dyno shop, and Hooker took his 409 there to have it dyno-tuned before taking it to the racetrack. As Hooker tells it, Bayer was just finishing up with another customer running the same Chevy engine when he arrived.
When Hooker’s made more horsepower, Bayer looked at him and said: “It’s got to be those headers. Can you get me some of those?” Hooker told him those were the only ones in existence, but that he would take them off his car and sell them to Bayer if he could get a ride home later.
“I more or less went into business right then,”
I’m assuming those headers went on Jacks ‘62 Impala SS/S and may have then been put on the Z-11.
Here’s a pic of Jack Bayer’s / Bill Bader Chevrolet Impala running against Hayden Proffit’s / Cone Chevrolet Sport Belair at the ‘62 Winternationals
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409Kid
Well Known Member
I also found another pic of the Z-11 when the second owner only referred to as “Barstow rich kid” had the car. Still trying to track him down. This is in its Ranger II paint scheme sometime after 1963 to later ‘60s location and credit unknown 
Note the Ramchargers hood scoop and all lettering has been changed except for “Driver” on the roof panel. Also there seems to be a color mismatch on the front fender and possibly the roof which may be indications that this car had been rolled and panels replaced. But, I haven’t been able to verify that a /the rollover ever occurred and when, as yet …
Note the Ramchargers hood scoop and all lettering has been changed except for “Driver” on the roof panel. Also there seems to be a color mismatch on the front fender and possibly the roof which may be indications that this car had been rolled and panels replaced. But, I haven’t been able to verify that a /the rollover ever occurred and when, as yet …
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Greg Reimer
Well Known Member
That track is Pomona, early '60's. The row of evergreen trees is along the south side of the first street of the neighborhood north of Arrow Highway, north of the track.That was one of the reasons for noise complaints from the people who lived there back then. In recent decades, a new tower that sets crossways north of the starting line, various noise walls, several industrial business sites are on the south side of Arrow Highway and similar construction along the north side as well as railroad construction had reduced a lot of the race car noise. They used to hang large sheets of canvas on the wire fence that went crosswise along the north property line as well. That was probably to prevent people from standing or sitting back there to watch the drags without paying.
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Really wanted absolutely nothing to do with this thread anymore but the spread of misinformation is becoming alarming. “RANGER” is NOT the Bayer Z11 or even a Z11 at all. It is a radio-equipped 409 Super Sport!
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409Kid
Well Known Member
Mark sorry you didn’t want to participate in this thread for what ever reason. I do thank you for pointing out the Ranger II error. I was told by another member offline that these two cars were one and the same. So I ran with it. Working exclusively from an iPhone definitely has its disadvantages in that many details are unseen on my tiny screen, but I now figured out how to print the pics from my phone (I’m not very tech savvy) and with them now blown up you are certainly correct. The Ranger II car has an antenna and is an SS.
I was also basing my assumptions on the similarity and locations of the lettering cues and that they had likely been part of a second ownership change. I can’t speak for the person that so, too, but I can see why assumptions were made. Ie “Dyno Tuned by Jack Bayer” vs “Engine by Jack Bayer” on the upper front fenders. “Headers by Hooker” vs “Hooker Headers” on lower front fenders. What looks like “Driver” appearing to be on the exact same location on both roofs, the “Bite by Casler” vs “Casler Tires”
on the lower rear quarters ahead of the wheel openings The same chrome wheel and tire combo on the rears. The same overall stance of the chassis. “A/FX” vs “B/MP” and class registration numbers on the doors and what appears to be dark blue on both cars. At least I don’t have to go down that rabbit hole any further. Again, Thank you.
Well that takes me back to when did Jack sell the car? To whom? Was it still a drag car? If so, what did it look like with the 2nd owner onward until it showed up in Yuba City?
I was also basing my assumptions on the similarity and locations of the lettering cues and that they had likely been part of a second ownership change. I can’t speak for the person that so, too, but I can see why assumptions were made. Ie “Dyno Tuned by Jack Bayer” vs “Engine by Jack Bayer” on the upper front fenders. “Headers by Hooker” vs “Hooker Headers” on lower front fenders. What looks like “Driver” appearing to be on the exact same location on both roofs, the “Bite by Casler” vs “Casler Tires”
on the lower rear quarters ahead of the wheel openings The same chrome wheel and tire combo on the rears. The same overall stance of the chassis. “A/FX” vs “B/MP” and class registration numbers on the doors and what appears to be dark blue on both cars. At least I don’t have to go down that rabbit hole any further. Again, Thank you.
Well that takes me back to when did Jack sell the car? To whom? Was it still a drag car? If so, what did it look like with the 2nd owner onward until it showed up in Yuba City?
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futurian
New Member
The biggest problem with your thread on the Hamb was the way you had it worded. We were under the impression that you had an entire car. The word restoration was misleading also. Had you started out by saying you had the alum fenders, cyl heads and intake manifold from the car it would have eliminated all the un needed confusion
409Kid
Well Known Member
Finding a suitable solid donor car is more of a challenge than I expected. I’m forgetting 63 impalas are 60 plus years old now. I remember when I could find 2 63 coupes on every street in my neighborhood in the ‘70s. I’m feeling old all of a sudden. If anyone comes across a solid roller no AC car in their travels please let me know.
In the meantime I’m beginning to drag 09 parts out of my storage so I can dry assemble a motor together and see what I have and what I’ll be needing. I’m sure I’ll never find the correct reciprocating pieces to build a true spec 427 engine. And since the car was known at one time to have a 482” stroker in it that’s the route I’m likely going to be taking with this project.
For those who have built engines for their cars where did you source pistons? Does anyone have a blueprint for the original design or even an aftermarket piston. I’m considering a 480” eagle stroker kit with H beam 6.135 rods. Since the car will likely be a trailer Queen and occasional race car at nostalgia events on the west coast I’m contemplating keeping the 13.5 CR and be committed to running race fuels. Nothing better than the sweet smell of burning toluene. lol. I’m amazed at how inexpensive these race stroker kits cost. I can remember back in the ‘70s when Forged True pistons were $1100, Howard’s aluminum rods were about $800 and a SCS counterbalanced stroker crank was in the same ballpark. Given inflation. The current prices for an aftermarket stroker kit is a bargain. Since I don’t have an old 427 piston as a model I have nothing on hand to go by when talking to a piston maker. I’ve used Arias in the past for custom work and design. They may actually have patterns in their archives but without a specific work order number they can’t help.
I guess I can dummy up a 09 block crank and oiston with a cam. Clay the top of the piston and roll it over and see where the impressions develop. But if anyone has an old piston or spec sheet they can loan or share info it would be immensely helpful and appreciated beyond measure.
Anyone with experience in these engine builds can post here or PM me with their insights so I can do this right the first time.
In the meantime I’m beginning to drag 09 parts out of my storage so I can dry assemble a motor together and see what I have and what I’ll be needing. I’m sure I’ll never find the correct reciprocating pieces to build a true spec 427 engine. And since the car was known at one time to have a 482” stroker in it that’s the route I’m likely going to be taking with this project.
For those who have built engines for their cars where did you source pistons? Does anyone have a blueprint for the original design or even an aftermarket piston. I’m considering a 480” eagle stroker kit with H beam 6.135 rods. Since the car will likely be a trailer Queen and occasional race car at nostalgia events on the west coast I’m contemplating keeping the 13.5 CR and be committed to running race fuels. Nothing better than the sweet smell of burning toluene. lol. I’m amazed at how inexpensive these race stroker kits cost. I can remember back in the ‘70s when Forged True pistons were $1100, Howard’s aluminum rods were about $800 and a SCS counterbalanced stroker crank was in the same ballpark. Given inflation. The current prices for an aftermarket stroker kit is a bargain. Since I don’t have an old 427 piston as a model I have nothing on hand to go by when talking to a piston maker. I’ve used Arias in the past for custom work and design. They may actually have patterns in their archives but without a specific work order number they can’t help.
I guess I can dummy up a 09 block crank and oiston with a cam. Clay the top of the piston and roll it over and see where the impressions develop. But if anyone has an old piston or spec sheet they can loan or share info it would be immensely helpful and appreciated beyond measure.
Anyone with experience in these engine builds can post here or PM me with their insights so I can do this right the first time.
Come on look at post #87
409envy
Well Known Member
Ahhh! You see I knew I saw it somewhere!!