1961 Bel Air family project

[Shake-N-Bake]

The 18mm vertical section in the profile drawings (RH) is only required behind the door opening as the outer rocker panel top to inner folds are no longer required there. The reinforcement panel will carry on and help attach the inner rocker panel on to the inner panel where the rear seat trim panel fixes to.
If you look at the LH drawing the reinforcement panel does not have this vertical section in the door area as the inner and outer rocker attach along the join.

Steve

Got it. Thanks! Makes perfect sense now that I think about it. It's going to be interesting to see what I find when I open up the rockers.

Question for those who have replaced rockers on these cars: The body is on the frame still....Do I need to fabricate a brace for the door opening before removing the outer rocker? If the body was on a rotisserie then I would think a brace might be needed. However, in this case the body is on the frame and the floors are installed so a 2 dr hardtop should be sturdy enough without needing a brace........I think? Thoughts?

 

[LMBRJQ 60]

What i have done before in this case (56 belair) is i had the door off any way so i could do the job so i took the bottom hinge off the pillar (scribe around both door and body attachment depending if it is coming off both) (left the top one on with a scribe around the door attachment) this was because the door gaps were real good prior to any work so wanted to get as close as possible with little work afterwards.

Then i made a plate that bolted to the door A pillar mount and one that mounted to where the door catch fitted and had a bar in between them (no welding to body in this case)
Then made a bar (1 inch box tube) that went from the door catch plate to the seat mount hole on the opposite side of the car. this stopped the B pillar moving forward/back or in/out without welding anything to the car
There was a reason behind this as the paint on the pillars was good and the only things i had to replace were the inner and outer rockers and blended the paint at the bottom

Worked real well, no movement at all.
But then again i cant tell if there would have been any movement if i didnt do this, just didnt want to take the chance as harder to fix afterwards when door goes on and is proud of B pillar

This is just my opinion and the way i did the repair, others here have more experience than me and will no doubt have other ideas

Steve

 

[63 Biscayne]

Keep up the great work !!! Nice job!

 

[Shake-N-Bake]

...

Then i made a plate that bolted to the door A pillar mount and one that mounted to where the door catch fitted and had a bar in between them (no welding to body in this case)
Then made a bar (1 inch box tube) that went from the door catch plate to the seat mount hole on the opposite side of the car. this stopped the B pillar moving forward/back or in/out without welding anything to the car...

Sounds like a good idea and something that won't take much time to fabricate. I might give that a try.

Years ago, when I replaced the floors on my '55 4 door it was rusted in a real bad way. Nothing was good. The entire floor, braces, inner and outer rockers were shot. The RH rocker was solid enough to leave it in just to keep things in place while I slid the floor in from the front. I welded in some temporary bracing from the toe boards to the rear seat and one more between the two B pillars and that seemed to work out great. When I got it back together all my door gaps looked pretty good. I think I'll play it safe and go with braces again this time.

Another thing that I did is mark some targets in a few key places and used a laser tool to measure the distances. When I was all done I checked things to make sure nothing moved. I'll probably try that method again...

.

 

[Jim Sullivan]

When I replaced the floors on my Impala hardtop I played it safe and tack welded a 1 1/2" square tube in the door opening, laying it on the top of the rocker, also tacked it onto the top of the rocker that I didn't have to replace.

When we replaced the floor and inner rockers on a 62 convertible, we made a brace similar to Steve's. We bolted braces in the door openings then ran braces across the car connecting the door opening braces. Worked very well with no movement.

Given the choice and the little time and materials required, I use the bracing.

 

[DonSSDD]

I think the guy on CT was Swede62, he did a lot of pics of the work he did on a 62 that was toast. If you search, you should find them.
Don

 

[Shake-N-Bake]

I think the guy on CT was Swede62, he did a lot of pics of the work he did on a 62 that was toast. If you search, you should find them.
Don

Found the threads. Thanks for the tip. Those photos are very helpful.

 

[blkblk63ss]

That laser would be very precise , better than a floppy tape measure , good idea!!!!

 

[Shake-N-Bake]

So the floor is done and time to replace the rockers. I basically didn't know what to expect but looking at the photos posted by Swede62 in the CT forum was very helpful. However, once I had my rockers opened up....I still had to stare at the remaining material for quite some time to figure out what I was looking at.

I am going to ask for ideas and advice at the end of this post but before I do, I would like to rename the part that I was previously calling a 'baffle' because that isn't what it is at all. Swede62 referred to it as a 'reinforcement' piece and that is a more accurate description. For the sake of my situation....let's call it a 'sill beam'. That piece is made of 14ga sheet metal (2mm) so it's very rigid and strong. The sill beam runs virtually the entire length from wheel to wheel (see attached photo). When the car is fully assembled, no part of the sill beam is visible but the forward 20% can be seen when the front fender is removed (lower cowl area). If the beam was separated into quarters (lengthwise) the 1st quarter would be at the cowl/A-pillar area, 2nd and 3rd quarter would be at the door opening and the 4th qtr would be at the forward quarter panel area (where the rear door would be on 4 door models...). On our car, the 2nd quarter was completely rusted away. In my attached photo, I cut out the 3rd quarter even though it wasn't rusted because I am pretty sure I am going to need to fabricate a new sill beam section that runs the entire length of the outer rocker. I then cut out a section of the quarter panel ahead of the rear wheel to expose the remaining 4th quarter of the sill beam so I can have access to weld later on. The quarter panel was rusted anyway so nothing lost there....

As I expected, there was also a Joiner plate....or what is left of one. The joiner plate is what ties the cowl to the inner and outer rockers in many cars. It's basically the inside cover of the A-pillar right behind the kick panel and slips down between the inner rocker and A-pillar and extends all the way down to the bottom flange of the rockers. Many times the upper section of the joiner plate is OK but the lower portion inside the rockers are rusted away and our car didn't disappoint. It looks like there just enough good metal left to take a weld so I might get by with just replacing the rotted lower piece so I think I have that part handled. My question comes with the sill beam item. Did you guys install that first and then try and fit the rocker over it somehow? Or do you install the sill beam section inside the rocker first and then put it on the car as an assembly? If the latter, how did you ensure the profile of the rocker was correct prior to welding in the sill beam section and how were you able to re-attach the sill beam to the remaining good portions? As near as I can tell, if only replacing a center section of the sill beam, then it has to be welded in first and then the outer rocker gets fitted over it somehow. Is that even possible? I can open up the base of the A-pillar quite a bit so it might be possible. ????

So, my thoughts are that I fab up a new section of sill beam out of 14ga material, tack weld it in between the 1st and 4th sections that remained in the car and use some sort of clips or spacers to keep the sill beam located in the proper location. Keep in mind that without the outer rocker in place....the section of the sill beam at the door opening will be completely self supporting without anything to attach do. I did find two 'baffles' inside the door area. One at the forward floor brace and located in between the inner rocker and sill beam and the second towards the rear of the door opening located between the sill beam and outer rocker. (see attached photo). The baffle section was made like an Oreo cookie....two pieces of sheet metal stapled together with a layer of heavy bodied sealer sandwiched in between. Each baffle was just glued in place with some more seam sealer at a right angle to the rockers....so those pieces really are 'baffles'. I could probably use one of the baffles as a template to make some solid metal duplicates that can be used to hold the sill beam in position prior to fitting the outer rocker. If I am able to install the rocker over the repaired sill beam section and everything lines up nice then I'll can blow it apart and weld up the sill beam solid and then refit the outer rocker and do the same. (having the body on a rotisserie would be super nice right about now...)

Do you think this plan could work? I know it would be much easier to weld the sill beam section into the rocker on the bench and then install it as an assembly but then the profile of the rocker would be locked and might not fit the car correctly. Even if I was able to get the profile correct while on the bench....I don't see any reasonable way to weld the new sill beam section back to the remaining good forward section. Any ideas?

 

[blkblk63ss]

Here is what i did. I only had to replace the rear portion of that inner i guess you call sill beam , as i duplicated a panel and bent and fitted and checked with fit of outer 1/4 lower panel in front of rear wheel , once i knew it fit i tack welded it ,and checked fit to outer panel. once that was correct i welded it in to top and on the end.I then measured where the lower step layed on the outer lower 1/4 panel below. I then made holes along lower bottom panel in line with the sill before so it could be plug welded to lower quarter panel after outer was welded on, then i just smoothed the plug weld's down.I have a rotiserie so it was very easy to do . I hope this is what you are talking about, hope this help's.

 

[tripower]

I grind old drill bits to make spot weld cutters. It's easy to do and it works like a charm.

 

[Jim Sullivan]

I did the same as blkblk63ss . I welded in the inner reinforcement then plug welded it to the bottom of the rocker panel. Worked great!

 

[Shake-N-Bake]

I did the same as blkblk63ss . I welded in the inner reinforcement then plug welded it to the bottom of the rocker panel. Worked great!

Great. Thanks for the replies. I think I'll give that a try as well. I wasn't sure I'd be able to get the rocker fitted into place after the reinforcement was welded in but I looked at it again last night and it seems reasonable. I'll fab up the pieces that I need during the week and give it a try again this weekend. At the moment I am confident that I'll be able to complete the task in a satisfactory manner.

Thanks again for the help.

On a different note...
I bolted in the front seat and it seems to fit fine. The seat came from a '64 Impala but should work fine as a '61 Bel Air once it's stripped down to the frame and re-upholstered. I dropped off the interior parts at Ciadella yesterday. Gena said it was a good thing that we had the original door and rear side panels still because the stainless trim is very hard to find these days. Apparently the medallions are available so we are getting a new set. The original arm rests were chromed plastic parts and they were cracked in several places and the chrome surface was almost totally gone. I found a new set of repops online at the Truck Shop (www.truckandcarshop.com). According to their catalog the arm rests fit 62-64 but they looked exactly like the set we had in our '61 so for $28 I decided to give them a try and they were a perfect match. Their part number is 62-06108 if anyone has the need. Does anyone know if the carpet is molded differently for a floor shift vehicle?

 

[tripower]

The Impala outer hinge seat bracket is a bit different then Bel Air as it is shaped to mount the aluminum trim. You may be able to manipulate it to look correct. I also have the seat adjust bezel and knob if you need it. The carpet is not molded any different for 4-speed and is salt & pepper. The correct boot is round. I had to use a 68-72 Nova boot to fit the Long shift linkage for the Richmond.

 

[Shake-N-Bake]

The Impala outer hinge seat bracket is a bit different then Bel Air as it is shaped to mount the aluminum trim. You may be able to manipulate it to look correct. I also have the seat adjust bezel and knob if you need it. The carpet is not molded any different for 4-speed and is salt & pepper. The correct boot is round. I had to use a 68-72 Nova boot to fit the Long shift linkage for the Richmond.

Thanks for the reply and photos. What trim level was your front seat originally? (Biscayne?)
For a while we were searching high and low for a Bel Air seat but they are hard to find. As far as I can tell, red interior was only available in the Impala and Bel Air Sport Coupe models so that makes it more difficult to locate. We eventually found one but they wanted $800 for the seat and it didn't have the rubber red hinge covers. We could have tried dyeing it to match but then we realized we kinda like the polished aluminum seat shell look. I know it's not original but a little custom touch here and there will be fine with us. I was planning on going with the round boot but that Nova boot looks pretty cool too. How do you like the 6 speed? Did you have to modify a bunch of stuff to get it in there or was it a bolt in affair? (almost afraid to ask that question....)

 

[tripower]

The seats from 61-64 Bel Air, Biscayne are the same as well as Pontiac Catalina. Here is a pic of my 64' Catalina seat. My car was all original Bel Air.
You can read about my Richmond install here. http://www.348-409.com/forum/threads/started-on-the-bel-air.13956/

 

[Shake-N-Bake]

... My car was all original Bel Air.
...

Didn't the Bel Air seats have the three stripes on the seat bottoms as well as the backs? The photo you posted looks like the stripes are missing on the bench cushion..???

Sweet looking Pontiac. Is that a tilt wheel? Are those seat belts original or something you added yourself. We are going to add seat belts to our car, I just need to figure out the best way to accomplish that. I am hoping I don't have to cut holes in the seat to secure the interior belt sections....I bet there is a thread on here somewhere that explains the process...

 

[1961BelAir427]

All very good questions. I didn't catch the vinyl and stripes missing on the original upholstery either.....and I've looked at those pictures MANY times over the last few years. I need to look at the replacement seat covers (stashed in a box under our bed) and also at the original seat covers (rotten, but still there) on the parkwood parts car and see how the stripes/vinyl is laid out.

 

[tripower]

Didn't the Bel Air seats have the three stripes on the seat bottoms as well as the backs? The photo you posted looks like the stripes are missing on the bench cushion..???

Sweet looking Pontiac. Is that a tilt wheel? Are those seat belts original or something you added yourself. We are going to add seat belts to our car, I just need to figure out the best way to accomplish that. I am hoping I don't have to cut holes in the seat to secure the interior belt sections....I bet there is a thread on here somewhere that explains the process...

The original owner had the seat cushion recovered at one point with the closest material she could find. I am the second owner of my Bel Air. My Catalina is completely original with 15000 miles and 38 options.

 

[tripower]

All very good questions. I didn't catch the vinyl and stripes missing on the original upholstery either.....and I've looked at those pictures MANY times over the last few years. I need to look at the replacement seat covers (stashed in a box under our bed) and also at the original seat covers (rotten, but still there) on the parkwood parts car and see how the stripes/vinyl is laid out.

Jason,
If you remember Cars had to do my interior twice as they did not know the correct order of stripes or colors on the seat covers. I asked them upon ordering if they needed detailed photos but they assured me they did not as they knew the color combinations. That was not the case.