409 Knock

[oil4kids]

pull the drivers valve cover and start it, look at rockers, make sure theres normal travel , sometimes a bad valveguide will hold the valve, will sound like a rod ,never use moly grease on the valves during assembly

rods usually knock on deceleration and goes away with acceleration

 

[mac1]

No stethoscope Mac.

I guess I should drop the pan.

Don

Sorry Don, but if it were my motor, I would yank it out and take it back to the builder. Let him deal with it.

 

[skipxt4]

Don: What I would do, if it were my motor. Your idea. Go get the guy that did the work. Let him make the call. I wouldn't take anything off the engine. That way he can't say you screwed it up. Just my opinion. Skip

 

[walkerheaders]

on top of all the good ideas....i would pull the converter back, and take the belts off. if the noise goes away, put things back one at a time until you narrow it down.

 

[DonSSDD]

Thanks for all the advice- I am pulling it and taking it to the builder. I have convinced myself it must be something inside the oil pan.

Don

 

[larry t]

Thanks for all the advice- I am pulling it and taking it to the builder. I have convinced myself it must be something inside the oil pan.

Don

Does he have a way to run the engine on a stand? It would be easier for him to troubleshoot if he heard the noise before he tears the engine apart. Have you talked to him about the problem?
Larry T

 

[yellow wagon]

make sure you don't tear anything apart on that motor! If it DOES have something wrong with it, why would you want to be the one to diagnose the issue? You paid for a service and until that service is met with satisfactory approval from you (the customer) I wouldn't go a day with it in my possession. Tear it back out and bring it to him if you must. But don't start taking the thing apart. You'll have NO ground to stand on if it does have issues.

 

[larry t]

I've run a garage and built engines for 30 years. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you need to work with your engine builder. Get his input before you start pulling the engine.
I've seen knocks caused by bearings, rods hitting the pan, rockerarms hitting the valvecovers, collapsed skirts, wrist pins, camshaft walking back and forth, fuel pumps, lifters, loose or broke dampners, loose or cracked flywheels, bad torque convertors, and a lot of other strange malodies. I know that if a customer had problems with one of my engines, I'd like to hear and check the symptoms before I started taking the engine apart. It's a bad comparison, but would you want to go to a doctor, say "I hurt" and expect him to start treating or operating on you with no other information?
Sometimes a little communication before action saves a lot of stress and headaches.
.0000002 worth,
Larry T
BTW, I'd drive 20 miles in a heartbeat to listen to an engine I built, if the customer had problems or wasn't satisfied with the engine.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

I'm with Larry. If you take the engine out and take it to the builder, what's he gonna do?? Big chance he will examine and say, " nothing is wrong". I would want him to hear it with his own ears. Then HE could formulate the best way to handle it.

 

[Old School]

I'm with Ronnie and Larry! Leave the motor in the car! The problem may be minor that once located by the BUILDER can be fixed without pulling the motor... That would save a bunch of unneccessary labor.
Mick

 

[DonSSDD]

FYI, I have been discussing the issue with my builder all the way along- he hasn't volunteered to come listen to the knock. My reasons for asking for input here was to eliminate any possible issues outside of something inside the oil pan. Basically, the last thing I wanted to do was pull the engine.

I used a stethoscope on the valve covers, fuel pump, timing chain cover, oil pan, bell housing, exhaust manifoilds, and water pump. I also disconnected the fan belt and the knock is still there.

My builder has a great reputation, I didn't think they could have done anything wrong but everybody can make a mistake. I will bring it in and get him to open it up while I am there.

Don

 

[chevymusclecars]

Since you have done all of the obvious why don't you at least remove the valve cover on the side where you have noise and be sure you don't have a broken valve spring or bent push rod. If I were the builder I would not want you to remove the pan but he should have no problem with the valve cover being removed to avoid damage when pulling the engine.

Just my opinion but the only other thing that I would think you could do is remove the oil and filter and look for metallic particles.

Bill

 

[gearhead409]

Bill

i have not said anything here but after checking all the things that could of went wrong at the time Don installed and fired up his new engine and the noise is still there, his builder needs to hear it run and as you have said, drain the oil in a very clean pan and cut the filter open. this will give the builder the best chance as to what to do next. at this point it's his baby.

 

[larry t]

FYI, I have been discussing the issue with my builder all the way along-
Don

Don,
If you've been talking to him about the problem all along, he wants you to pull the engine without listening to it and that's what you think needs done then that's all that counts.
Please let us know what ya'll find out. It's always nice to know what potential problems are waiting to rear their ugly heads.
Larry T

 

[DonSSDD]

Rod bearing on #1 & 2- will find out tomorrow what other possbile damage was caused.

Don

 

[Old School]

Don: Sorry to hear that.... We are hoping your builder will stand behind it..

Mick

 

[mac1]

Rod bearing on #1 & 2- will find out tomorrow what other possbile damage was caused.

Don

Sorry to hear that Don. Make sure you check that oil filter canister. That filter needs to be pushed up tight against the bypass valve.

 

[DonSSDD]

My builder tore the engine down- the crank is scratched a bit, the cam, pistons, and bores are fine, everything else looks OK so far. His thoughts were that it was caused by a lack of oil pressure but couldn't be sure of a cause. He said he found nothing wrong with the installation, but would come good for it and fix at no cost to me.

I had had a problem with an oil leak with the oil filter canister, but didn’t think it was serious and my oil pressure was running at 20-25 lbs at idle. I’d say that may have been the cause of the bearing damage. Mac1 pegged it for me.

He backed up his work by agreeing to fix it at no cost, so I told him it was likely not his fault and I would be willing to pay for the fix.

I appreciate the input from all of you on this issue. I am learning a lot as I go, I had never done any mechanical work before buying the 59 El Camino and very much enjoy the experience.

Don

 

[johnnyrod]

We had a 409 all rebuilt new everything. Engine knock turned out to be 2 pistons that where hitting the head. They sounded like a rist pin drove us crazy but all good now new pistons.

 

[32witha409]

I didn't see the issue has been resolved.
Wow talk about "Digging Up Bones", this is an old thread!!