59 Impala - 3 speed to 4 or 5 speed

ozzie7

ozzie7

Well Known Member
348 335HP... 3.55 rear end.
Any comments about doing the swap?
Was thinking about changing the stock BW 3 speed (no OD) to a Muncie M20.
Prev. owner converted column shifter to the floor.
I believe the Input Shaft Tooth and Spline tooth Count is something that might need to be considered.
Maybe need to modify the hole in the transmission tunnel.
I'm just digging into this idea of the swap and am mostly clueless...... mostly.
 
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DonSSDD

DonSSDD

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Good swap, I did it with a Saginaw 4 speed, same size as Muncie. You'll need to shorten the front driveshaft and if you have a different output shaft on the Muncie, you'll need to change the yoke to match what you need. Input shaft may be different too, just means getting a different matching clutch. Stock transmission mount will work too.
4 speed shifter is different, get a Hurst; if you have a 3 speed floor shifter, the hole in the floor may be OK or need a little adjusting. This is a very easy swap.
 
ozzie7

ozzie7

Well Known Member
Thanks Don...
How much longer is the 4 speed vs the 3 speed?
I nixed going 700R4 because of the extra length that might result in drive shaft vibration issues I've read about.
 
real61ss

real61ss

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 8
I didn't think you needed to change anything except maybe the hole in the floor. I thought the 3 and 4 speeds were the same length but I might be wrong. I switched a 58 Impala over and don';t remember it being a problem but that was years ago
 
1958 delivery

1958 delivery

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
I believe if you use a early Muncie (pre 70) both clutch and drive shaft spline will be the same as your 3 speed. I don't think the drive shaft needs to be changed but I'm not expert on these. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to swap in a 4 speed.
 
G

Geary Trussell

Well Known Member
As you probably know the Borg Warner T10 4 speed could come in a 59. The T10 is a natural swap as you can use your existing cross member and shifters are readily available. I think the T10 is a good street trans capable of handling 350 h.p.
 
ozzie7

ozzie7

Well Known Member
4 speed T10 or M20 sounds like it would be the easiest conversion.
Now all I need is a "VERY GOOD" condition wide ratio version of either tranny to start with.
Hopefully someone here has one they don't need or knows of a good source.
Please let me know if you have any suggestions.
 
pvs409

pvs409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 11
  • You can use a wide ratio T-10 or Muncie wide ratio transmissions are good. I have had problems with Rebuilt Borg Warner T-10's popping out of 1st or 2nd gear when you decelarate . For this reason and that I like the way Muncie's shift, I have switched to Muncie 4 speed transmissions. In early 1963 GM switched to using Muncie 4 speeds from Borg Warner 4 speeds ( T-10's were used from 1958 to early 1963)
  • A wide ratio 2:54 first or 2:52 first gear would be the best for your 335 /348 motor
  • A rebuilt T-10 or Muncie is going to range in $ from about $ 1100 to over $ 2000. I used to pay a well known transmission builder in Missouri $ 950 for a rebuilt T-10's and Muncie 4 speed transmissions (all gears good or new, new synchos, rebuild kit, etc.) . If he was still around I would think a $ 1100 price would be today's price.
  • A hurst 4 speed shifter is the best for either transmission(original wiggle shifters are do not shift and can hang up in gear).
  • If you want a original 4 speed type handle and knob on the shifter you need a hurst shifter that has a bolt on handle.
  • Used shifters can be purchased but the arms and rods must fit the transmission you get. There is wide varation in the arms and rods and to fit the transmission you need select, so the shifter will sit in the correct location in front of your bench seat.
  • I see lots of used Hurst shifters for sale with fixed handles and no numbers for the rods and arms. Without this information you do not know if the shifter will fit the transmission you purchase.
  • I have been using Muncie 4 speeds with studs on the side cover. I have been able to find nearly new or new Hurst 4 speed shifters for the transmission I have been using. From 1963 to 1970 there are at least 3 different Muncie transmissions that require shifters with different arms and rods.
  • You can buy new Hurst 4 speed shifters for a T10 or a Muncie. LIke these(Not cheap) --one with a reproduction handle and knob : https://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=3985
  • Here is the shifter alone for a T-10 with a Hurst handle and knob : https://www.ebay.com/itm/HURST-4-Sp...ash=item419d7b2daf:g:3sAAAOSwGYVW-Spq&vxp=mtr
  • Here is a floor cover used on 1960 Chevy's on factory 4 speed cars : https://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=4242
  • Factory boot for a 58/59 Chevy with a 4 speed : https://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=4869
  • There are a number of transmission rebuilder companies out there that other members have noted on this site. Some of them I have looked at their prices and on e-bay which is were I got the $ 1100 to $ 2000 prices.
  • Some guys use Borg Warner Super t-10 tranmissions
  • Used transmissions are just that -most of them would need to be rebuilt unless you can find one were the owner knows that the transmission will not need any rebuilding. I have sold used 4 speed transmissions for about $ 400 to $ 600(the assumption is that they needed synchos replaced for sure along with a rebuild kit)
  • Note on 5 speeds or 6 speeds - they cost new close to or over $2500/ $3000. Some models require major tunnel modifications to your floor pan. Their advantage is the overdrive 6 gear for highway driving. With a 3:36 rear end using a T-10 or Muncie 4 speed in your 1959 the highway RPM should be fine.
  • I do have a Richmond 5 speed in one of my 62's but I got it for $ 1500 including the 5 speed hurst shifter. Richmond 5 speeds are not sold now -only Richmond 6 speeds are sold. These Richmond transmissions shift like BW T-10's and Muncie 4 speeds -other 6 speeds are rail type shifting transmissions and are a racheting type shifter -so I have stayed away from them and because of their cost. I have had 10 to 15 BW T-10 or Muncie 4 speed 60's Chevys over the years and I like how they shift and/or speed shift...
  • I am not sure on driveshaft modifications that might be necessary (shorten and balance the driveshaft) from your 3 speed to a 4 speed
Paul
 
pvs409

pvs409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 11
Phil Reed said:
If your 4'speed pops out of 2nd and 3rd on deceleration.....the engagement teeth on those 2 gears are worn down from speed shifting. Need new gears or a different style of snychro.
Click to expand...

The BW T-10 transmission was rebuilt by Wayne Euper and I know he knew how to rebuild the transmission the correct way.
If I recall correctly Wayne had over 35/45 years of experience rebuilding Borg Warner and Muncie transmissions. He even rebuilt a Muncie 4 speed with 4th gear as overdrive for me. I have 5 transmissions that he did for me. I wish he was still with us.
He provided all the parts and the transmission for the T-10 so I know it was not built incorrectly.

The BW 4 speed was built by Wayne for my frame off restoration 1962 Chevy Impala 409/380 HP car white with a red interior.
Paul
 
pvs409

pvs409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 11
Better words
Wayne Euper :bow provided all the parts and the transmission case for the T-10 for my 1962 so I know it was built "correctly".:write

Paul
 
Tom Kochtanek

Tom Kochtanek

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 13
Wayne was The Man, and we all miss him and his expertise. Last time I was there he had hundreds and hundreds of built or buildable
T-10s and Muncies.
I have one left, with the spaghetti shifter from a 1962 but it's destined for one of my builds.
 
ragtp66

ragtp66

Well Known Member
I happen to know where there is a VERY good used M-20 that has less then 10,000 miles on a full rebuild new synchros, bearings, gaskets, seals etc. With a bolt on stick Hurst Competition Shifter all the linkage. Not 100% for sale but would consider trading it for a good used T56 from an LT1 based F-body prefer 96/97 but would consider 94/95.
 
DonSSDD

DonSSDD

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
The stock 3 speed manual transmission is a different length than the 4 speeds, way shorter. The 3 speed with OD is the same length, but those front driveshafts and those for a 4 speed x frame car are pretty rare to find. Much easier and cheaper to shorten what you have.

The input shaft are 10 spline on 3 speeds and early 4 speeds so you may or may not have to change your yoke and clutch. I have a super T10 in my 63, they are also a strong option. I'd get a Super T10 or a muncie, whichever you find first that suits you. Then get a correct yoke and clutch.

On the 58-60 ChevyTalk forum, there is a "sticky" at the top for transmission lengths and also one for driveshaft lengths.
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/32/keyword/1958-1960_Chevys/
 
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