Butch Schultz 61' Fleetmaster 409 4-speed

[409fanatic]

Hey great info. Grumpy told me pretty much what you are saying and I might add one thing I remember him saying that the 409 did not really hold up to NASCAR's wear & tear so they were giving or selling their 409's to drag racers which worked reasonably well.. Can't remember now, as the question arises to me what they went back to and ran when they dumped the 409. Well thanks for the info. How long have you had your 409 and what state do you live in? Well I wished I could say the car was done but there is a few more things to wrap up on it so I will keep triudging along till it is. Good chatting with you.. Butch

 

[real61ss]

I'm in Virginia. I bought my motor from a fellow member here (348nut) back in 2004. The motor was in tack, complete from carb to exhaust manifolds. The motor supposely was from the factory in a '61 convertibile, dropped a valve and destoryed one cylinder. It was rebuilt using low compression pistons and a hyd. cam, basicly used 250 horse 348 stuff to rebuild the motor. It was then installed in a logging truck and ran for years until the old truck was junked. The member here that I bought it from bought the motor as scrap thinking it was a 348. He later cleaned the motor and discovered the 623 casting number, got to looking and found out he had a complete '61 409 motor, when I disassembled it we found exactly what he had told me to be true, it had a sleeve in the # 8 cylinder but otherwise was standard bore. Of course i had it rebuilt back to the '09 spec. At the time I didn't have a body to put it in but knew of a documented '61SS body that had no motor so I bought it and put the two together. As for what Grumpy said about the 409's in NASCAR, I don't know about them selling the motors to the drag racers, they ran well on the short tracks, just didn't do too well on the speedways, Ned Jarrett won the Championship in '61 so they didn't do bad but they could have been running the 348 becasue from just looking at the motor you couldn't have told the difference. One thing I noticed from the photo of your car, it appears you have the fuel line going into the carb from the front, I beleive that was correct for the very early motors, mine has the original carb and the fuel line enters from the rear like the 380 horse '62's. Wish we weren't so far apart, be great to have these two cars together at the same show, '61 409's from both ends of the specturm, a Fleetmaster to a Super Sport, maybe we'll meet up somewhere.

 

[409fanatic]

You got that right. Be nice to be closer. But one never knows what the ole world has in store for us so never say never I guess but these time boxes come in pretty handy on a deal like this, especially when you think how many of us W-heads are drawn closer. What is a great story on your car too. Love to see the two the two together like you say. Funny how little turn of events winds up sometimes. Good thing he realized what he had. Alot of people including me years ago would not of paid much attention to casting numbers.. I put our car on the net and asked if anyone knew of this car and it set there two years before someone called and said it was his at one time and the only way he recognized it was the pinstriped dash. His name was Glenn Larson. One of the greatest guys with his wife Shirley and there son Mickey you would want to meet. If something happened to the car tomorrow all would not be lost for the friendship we developed. He is excited to see the car go back to it's early days of racing and it seems that both of us are living a dream seeing this come together.He says he don't but he has a memory like no other. Both him and Mickey can pull a rabbit out of a hat sometimes I think. They get visions and know how to get there. Me, I just have to follow.He also is building a clone to ours except it will not be numbers matching. If fact he now has my old World Finals motor in his car. But he even had the dash pinstriped just like ours. Our son Chad and Glenns son Mickey both started this project for the car use to be both of their dad's race car. One in the 60's and the other in the 70's and 80's. Glenn a couple years back got ahold of all the previous owners of the car plus friends of them that had something to do with the car 50 years ago and had a reunion. None of them had seen the car for 40 years and never even knew it existed anymore. So many stories and the mechanic would point out why he drilled this hole in the firewall. Have a picture of reuion with all these people around the hotrod. There were alot of stories. Really fun times. Well, I am boring you enough I know but I have to ask. Do you know how many of these papered cars still exist to date. I see some they say are the real ones but have the 2x4 barrels. Anyway great learning about the history of the 409's and learning about your car as well..Nothing like them. They surely stand alone. Take care

 

[GCAMINO]

Ricky
We can allways dream

 

[Rickys61]

Someday Gordie......Someday I'll figure out the history of my car

 

[409fanatic]

I had this one for around 33 years before I found the owners. So never say never. I had it on the computer for 2 years before someone came on and said it was his. What years do you two have? I see a 61 and a 63 for your pictures.

 

[Rickys61]

Butch, I bought my car in 1995. It's a 61 Biscayne 2 door sedan that had the 348 in it that's in there now And a Muncie that was toast. I've learned a lot about the car and I believe it was an original tri power 4 speed with the original drive train missing. There are holes drilled on the firewall, frame and core support. The fender wells were cut out for headers. I have talked to the guy I bought it from and he has shared as much as he remembers. Where on the Internet did you post your car that the original owner saw it and recognized it? Thanks, Rick

 

[409fanatic]

Hey sounds like you could really have an old race car yourself.. Now if my memory serves me well it was right here on this sight. I will call Glenn today and see if he remembers for he is the one that noticed it. I did not know there was anything special about ours in 1976 when I bought it. Shoot for 500 dollars it was a car I could go out and pass my frustrations on.(I had a job I took home with me daily.) I changed the color and wheels so it was actually unrecogonizable but one thing that I did not change or do anything with was the pinstriping on the dash and a 3 inch pinstriped figure of a little front engine dragster with it's wheels in the air and a little farmer with a straw hat chasing it with a pitch fork. I put pictures of the car on but that little drawing clinched it. So if there is anything you have noticed that is a little uniquie then put that on with the story you know and then ask " does anyone know of this car?" I checked every day for 3 months or better and it set there 2 years before I got a call. I gave up on it. Now what are the style numbers on your car? It will be on the firewall. If it is a 61 -1411 then it is a FLeetmaster as well. Few differences them and the Biscaynes. They maade them is 1961 only other than 3 or 4 years back in the 30's I believe. I will see what Glenn remembers. Glenn really has a memory compared to my feeble mind but if it is a west coast car he might have something on it. I wished he would get on here. One of the nicest guys along with his son you would want to meet and he is very informational on the history of the older 409's. Anyway I will be back when I get a call into him.. Butch

 

[409fanatic]

Rick: I called Glenn today and he thought it was on the 348 409 site. He said he would type in 9 iron and he could find it. It would of been around 2008. I could not find it so he said he will try when he gets home. So anyway we will try to help you but beings you are already on here I don't know what else to say. Can the previous owner remember where he got it from? But do not forget to look up the style number. I think it would be pretty cool if yours was a Fleetmaster also. You can read about them. Nothing really super special or anything about them other than it was a cheaper and a some what lighter version of the Biscayne and there were few of them made compared to the Biscayne. Till then.. Butch
Do any of you know a fellow name Greg Reemer? He was the president of a California 409 club back in the 70's. Thanks, Butch

 

[chevymusclecars]

Try this link http://www.348-409.com/forum/index.php?search/2967059/

Bill

 

[Rickys61]

Butch, that's the best pic I can get now... I'll try to get some better ones tomorrow. Near as I can tell, it's not a Fleetmaster, but just a 1211 Biscayne 2 door sedan built in Flint on the 4th week of June, Honduras maroon with a gray interior. The W 8 on the acc line is the only thing on the tag that I can't find..

 

[409fanatic]

Well that comes back as a 2 door sedan V-8 Biscayne. Too bad they do not tell what V-8. But it is a V-8. Now I do know the 409's came out with a 3/8 fuel line. Not for sure on the 348's but I do know on the 409 so you might want to check that out if you have not. I really do not think the 348's did but I imagine there is a ton of guys on here that can tell you. So for now look at t he fuel lines.

 

[409fanatic]

Bill. I clicked on that link you gave me and everytime it comes up as an error. If it is of the picture I posted years ago wondering if anyone knew of the car Glenn called me tonight and said it is still there for he found it. So I am going to go see if I can. He said I had posted that in 2005 which as of right now that is about right because it set there a good couple years before he seen it. Man time sure flies by. But thanks Bill. I will see if I can bring up yours again as well. Butch

 

[real61ss]

Well that comes back as a 2 door sedan V-8 Biscayne. Too bad they do not tell what V-8. But it is a V-8. Now I do know the 409's came out with a 3/8 fuel line. Not for sure on the 348's but I do know on the 409 so you might want to check that out if you have not. I really do not think the 348's did but I imagine there is a ton of guys on here that can tell you. So for now look at t he fuel lines.

Not to butt into your conversation but the cowl tag will always show it being a V8, there were no 6 cyl cowl tags, the VIN tag will tell you if the car was a 6 or 8. The 348 cars did have 3/8" fuel lines as did the 283 power pak cars. If the fuel line runs through the center frame tube and under the right upper control arm the car had one of the the dual exhaust motorss

 

[409fanatic]

Thanks Tommy. I never knew that. Learn things every day. His style number comes back in the Chevrolet's numbers book as a 2 door sedan V-8 so I just assumed that it was a V-8. I know with our car the trim tag number 61-1411 matches the first part of the vin number so they seem like they are one of the same. Our Vin # starts out 11411L as 1 I was thinking that the 1 is the model year and then the 1411 tells me the model series or Biscayne Fleetmaster and the L showing it is a LA or a west coast car. I do not know anything other than our car and the way the trim tag matches the start of the Vin # I just assumed they were all like that. So what you are saying his trim tag might not match the first part of his Vin # so for a true idenity if it is a V-8 he needs to look at his Vin #. Like I said I learn every day.

 

[real61ss]

You got it.

 

[Rickys61]

Butch and Tommy, here is my vin tag, According to my info, the 2 in the 3rd spot means it should have had a v 8. It also has the fuel line under the a arm like Tommy describes. The guy I got from lived near Warren OH and said he bought it in 1978. He also said it was just a rolling shell and it was his first car and was 16 when he got it. He is the one that put the motor and trans and interior that was in it. He also gave it the red and white paint that its wearing now. Under it is the original maroon. He also said that it had block off plates for the heater and he put the heater in. So it ma have been a no heater car too? He said they got it from somewhere in PA... Couldn't exactly remember where or who from. Anyone know someone that raced one of these from PA back in the day??? Thanks, Rick

 

[Last 60]

Butch and Tommy, here is my vin tag, According to my info, the 2 in the 3rd spot means it should have had a v 8. It also has the fuel line under the a arm like Tommy describes. The guy I got from lived near Warren OH and said he bought it in 1978. He also said it was just a rolling shell and it was his first car and was 16 when he got it. He is the one that put the motor and trans and interior that was in it. He also gave it the red and white paint that its wearing now. Under it is the original maroon. He also said that it had block off plates for the heater and he put the heater in. So it ma have been a no heater car too? He said they got it from somewhere in PA... Couldn't exactly remember where or who from. Anyone know someone that raced one of these from PA back in the day??? Thanks, Rick

Bill Jenkins comes to mind. That Last '61 that they built to honor him was a clone, correct?? Maybe you have the original Grumpy '61. Wouldn't that be a KICK IN THE PANTS???????

Lonnie

 

[Rickys61]

Lonnie.. That was what I first thought too about 10 years ago when I started piddling with this thing. But I got that theory shot down when I found out it was built too late... They were racing theirs way before mine was built.. Plus I think theirs was a fawn interior???

 

[real61ss]

Ricky,
Does that gas line appear to be original? Based on what you are saying about the gas line the car must have be a 348. How original does the firewall appear to be? Are there any signs of crayon markings on the firewall? There are a couple of things you should look for, is there a resistor on the firewall? if there is it should be mounted to the drivers side near the gas pedal lever, would probably be mounted with the same screw that grounds the windshield wiper motor. Also, can you tell where the coil was originally mounted?