Edelbrock interested

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Ignitionman
I can't speak for the others on this site but I really don't care about the Pontiac engine and all of there problems. We are interested in the W engines and how we can improve them. QUOTE]

Well, you DID speak for me too .
I'd drive an old Dodge before I'd drive a Pontiac.
However...
Skip... people still deserve respect. MAN, your knowledge and ability with those notorious bearing-spinners... it's ... it's .... God-like bang .
Seriously, anybody who can keep one of those things together... you can BET they know EXACTLY what the %$#& they're doing .
7000+ RPM ? :eek: with a 455 Pontiac ?
bang

 

[IgnitionMan]

Aubrey, thank you for correcting the post.

musclecar, you sure act like you are God, don't you. I realize it is only your opinion you are posting, but that opinion is dead wrong.

Skippy, a cross bolted block is drastically stronger than a 4 bolt paralell or angled one.

Also, the Pontiac engine suffers form a large air management issue, there just ain't a lot of air area to dampen in the windage areas, as in the pan, valley and valve cover areas. This lack of windage/underside of the pistons air control makes for pistons that see resistance from the air under them. This inherant issue is easliy handled, with more windage and air dispersal area within the engine, as in more pan volume, and to straighten out the end of the valley and seal areas, from the curved end seal area to one that is straight across the valley, and uses the ends of the inlet manifold to seal off the valley. This would give a considerablly larger area for air to be handled/dampened in, and the pressures inside the windage area would get lower/more controllable, with the pistin resistance from the air lkessened. This is simple physics and basic pressure engineering, first year study,

Why is it, then, that all you real serious Pontiac racers seem to just love a block that is still substandard? And heads with ports from the dark ages? Must be just nostalgia. Or, is it just "aluminum"!

I'd sure like to see your wet flow studies of the head ports, and your impulse bench studies as well. What, you DON'T have a wet flow flow bench, or an impulse one to study angles? Aw, come on, you have to have them, EVERY good head guy has a dry flow bench, AND a wet flow bench AND an impulse reader, well, heck, even a lowly guy like me has the three of them to use and record data from. Post your data from all the heads you have done the complete flow tests, dry, wet, impulse, for all of us to see, please.

 

[chevymusclecars]

Fatride

We are going to need a better description before we can answer you request. Was your aluminum door the one with the Aluminum cross bolted bars for strength or the one with the weak webbing???

 

[SS425HP]

409 heads, for ignitionman

Dave, have you ever run the flow numbers on a 690 409 head? Just was wondering what kind of numbers you might have come up with, both dry and wet and pulse. It would be interesting to see where they stand compared to some others. We know they aren't good, but just how bad are they, and where can they be fixed to flow better?

 

[dq409]

And i just have one more thing to say about these Pontiac engines,,,,,,
MOVE IT TO YOUR OWN THREAD !!!!:takethat

There might be a few here that are insterested in them so make these long posts in a dedicated threads ! Matter of fact I`ll start one for you !!

Both of you , Dave and Skip have a ton of knowledge to share with us and YES Dave please if you haven`t already put a set of them 690 on your benches for us !! ,,dq

 

[tripowerguy]

I absolutely love the W engine and the 58 thru 64 Chevies that being said I respect other old cars. Like the Studebaker Lark(Plain Brown Wrapper) 114 in 1/4 on skinny 8:00X14"s and a VW pulling 3 ft. wheel stands and turning 115mph. Also a 1970 Buick turning 10:90at 127mph all makes have their diehards that somehow make them turn unreal times and stay together. I believe that we have some who can make our W's run also but what we are talking about on this thread is replacement heads that we can replace the dwindling supply of old stock heads. I think that Rich's heads will be great and if they are in the $4000 range he will sell a lot of them. My hope is that a large manufacturer i.e. Edlebrock, would jump on the bandwagon and offer a less expensive head with a 3X2 manifold for us. I have a W in my 58 and I like to drag race it also. I could go faster cheaper with a SBC but I would rather have the 348 tripower in the car. If everything gets to exspensive then I'll be satisfied with what I have. If I go to 4:56's in the rearend I can expect to spend about $1000 on the rearend. Then a few upgrades on the trans $600 then pistons, crank, cam and rebuild $5000. Add that to $4000 for heads, $1500 for intake and you have a pretty good chunk of change. This is for a car that I have already put $20,000 into. I would love to make this 58 go over 100mph and in the 13's. I had a 58 Biscayne with all factory parts except headers, go 102 and in the high 13's on bias ply tires so I think with 40 years of technology we could easyly replicate that, !!! NOT. With some reasonably priced heads and a better manifold it might be feasible. Some people have a different view of reasonable. $2000 is reasonable $4000 is really out of reach for me. I am not saying $4000 is unreasonable I'm saying that most people who like to live a life, this takes more than hobby money. I would hope that we can discuss this reasonably and take the high road. We don't need to bash anyone or anything let us do good not harm. If a manufacture looked at this thread he would shy away from us I think. I admire Rich and his efforts he will fill a void that needs to be filled. Roy

 

[Fathead Racing]

Your right Roy. I deleted my post.

 

[johnnyrod]

I am a new recruit to the 348 409 world. I have a 348 tri power in my 28 ford and I am in love. A set of new heads for my needs would be wow. I only need a good 340 hp style. That said any idea when we get or if we do indeed get. John

 

[4onthefloor]

With all due respect to Ignitionman...Edelbrock won't give a rats *** about what one person says. They do marketing studies and know what will sell in the marketplace.

 

[IgnitionMan]

Fatride, PLEASE, don't delete your posts. Even if they are adverse, or against me, please, let 'em stay. I will be the first to stand along side you in keeping your right to post what you will, even if it flames me. I just don't believe in deleting any post or topic.

Now, for the pics of the lifter bracing. Anyone go to the drags and see the top end off a fuel Hemi? They have lifter bracing that works, not the anemic stuff shown in the "super-duper Pontiac" pics. And, the stock cast iron block Hemi has a single crossbolt, fuelers have two per cap.

Now, with that Hemi blueprint, just why was the Pontiac block NOT made as strong as it possibly could be? Well...it's the super heros, like Skippy and friends, that don't even look at better ways to do it, they just get it cast in "aluminum". I got a news flash, they ain't gonna run out of aluminum, they'll make MORE, even for stuff like a really better than what's now available Pontiac block.

I just got off the phone with Jim Burek, Buick guru and aluminum block redo'er. We spoke of the two blocks, his and Jim Weise's, that are at the top of Buick controversy. Burek has a block in the works that will make the Buick engines much, much stronger, Weise doesn't have a block in testing now, but is claiming his IS tested better than Burek's. Weise is also telling others his aluminum heads are making great inroads in Buick performance, when there aren't any to be had. I equate the Burek efforts to the individuals on this board making real efforts to redesigning the parts right, and Weise as the Edelbrock marketing machine, attempting to just make a profit, and putting everyone else out of business that is a competitor, by inuendo and misinformation.

Someone above posted that Edelbrock is a giant corporation, and iut got that way from hard work and creative sesign. Well, not all true, some of it, yes, but the rest, jsut not so. Edelbrock has put quite a large number of good, small businesses that had great ideas and products, right out of business, by doing what Pro-Comp is doing right now, flooding the market with their less than better parts for give away prices, choking the little guy to death.

The Edelbrock machine is somewhat like the Borg in Star Trek speak, "Resistance is Futile", add, "You're Parts Are Gonna Get Absorbed Into The Collective, You Are Gonna Dry Up And Blow Away".

As far as flowing a 690 head, nope, haven't, so I have to post that I have NO data for one. I will say that before I went to the aluminum ZL1 based engines in my nitro AA/FA years ago, I used cast iron W409 based engines, 480 cu/in and larger. Hank the Crank did the strokers, Isky did the cams, Forged-Tru did the pistons, Howard's aluminum rods, Weiand/Mooneyham blower setups, Vertex magnetos, ported Z11 heads, etc. I never used a flow bench to do a W head back then, it just never was in the budget. Back then, a flow bench was a real luxury, but the "solvent tank flow indicator" was readily available, real stone age, but......it was free, and a very good teaching tool!

 

[skipxt4]

ROY: You hit the nail right on the head. We all enjoy these engines, Its counterproductive to get bent outta shape when there's a discussion that pulls everyone apart. Lets hope that somebody DOES start making parts for our engines. If more parts become available, that might help to stop the vulture's from screwing people on e-bay. Just my opinion:

 

[Skip FIx]

I too am for building good strong W motors with alot of power that are dependable, it's why I do check here on this board for ideas and share mine. I've had W motors for over 30 years, and Pontiacs only 20, so they are my first love. In the early 70s they had the reputation for "blowing up", mine sure never did.

If I slammed anyone else I apologize, I really don't think I did. This discussion was about Edelbrock heads for Ws and their possible performance related to other heads they make by others here. I have multiple sets of those so I thought an informed consumer's input might be added in on actual quality.

The only point I was trying to make was a counter to Ignitionman''s statement, he posted that the Pontiac E heads are basically junk needing lots of work to flow decent, and he related that to what Edelbrock would come out with for the W motors would be junk,AND aftermarket blocks are to oweak als . That is in fact NOT the case. That is where I do have some expertise and can show you all some actual facts on them. Showing those I'll drop any future technical references to Pontiac motors(although I believe Canadian Pontiacs had W motors and other Chevy motors right Aubrey, so what's really a Pontiac?), they were just used to illustrate those facts. I agreed and stated Pontiac E heads are good not great and a cross drilled block is stronger, but maybe overkill. Both are better than was currently availble for most enthusiasts, like where the Ws are now with the numbers available and price on 690/583s.

To quote even the more recent post from him. "Why is it, then, that all you real serious Pontiac racers seem to just love a block that is still substandard? And heads with ports from the dark ages? Must be just nostalgia. Or, is it just "aluminum"." We're not talking a complete perfect redesign of the W motors either

Looking at the Popular Hot Rodding Engine Masters competition we can all get good ideas for new technology that ALL motors can use Ws, Pontiacs, etc to go faster more dependably. A Ford Pro Stock builder placed 4th with a Pontiac motor 851 hp,782 ftlbs onpump gas. Coatings, cam designs and lobe seps, intake concepts, valve spring technologies for all the popular(read that SBC,BBC, Ford) can help us with our Ws. Amny mixing currently availble parts.

The Pontiac community has already been where the W community is starting now with these aftermarket parts from the big players to smaller players, all shooting for different marketplaces all with some different quality or design issues. The more products the more choices.An educated comsumer is a better satisfied consumer. I thought our exchange of ideas here was for accurate information. Or pitfalls for similar products for the guys here might want to know about that are producing them others have experienced. As others have said besides me Edelbrock is going to look at market and the P&L statement for potential sales before they jump off. Look at the repro exhaust manifold market- more units allow Pontiac manifolds to be cheaper than 09 manifolds for the makers to get their costs back, simple business math.Edelbrock recently added Olds heads(another fair to good not great head) so a possible W head could be another market for them if the numbers play out.

Back to W specs my stock 690 heads flow around 245 cfm @ 28 at .600, someone else mentions around 260 for ported, I can see that. Still less than what a good aftermarket SBC head flows feeding 350-406s. And no I don't have a wet flow bench, from Reher and Morrison's articles there are more out there but still very few at most machine shops inthe country, the Superflow 600 being the standard that is readily availble. From seeing Shafer cars run( numeroous NMCA events I raced at also) I am sure Rich and them wil build a good to great head for us W guys. As others here have posted they don't need a great flowing head for their W project, I personally could put me down for a set. But Rich and them are looking at the better flowing "market" than the general market Edelbrock shoots for, much like the new "other" heads for other motors I won't mention.But probably keeping interchangeability with some existing parts-which means a total perfect design can't be done here either. Head flow is as much a disadvantage for a W especially strokers to make decent power. So the more the merrier in the market , we can sort them out once they get here on performance, buy what works and fits the best. We can discuss what worked and what didn't to help the next guy and we're all the better for it.

We still have a 2 bolt main (non cross drilled non dowelled) block to either convert to 4 bolt 09 diameter main caps, or BBC diameter main caps. Do we need to "hard block" these when we start getting more air flow in to make more hp(potential hp per cylinder = airflow cfm @10"x 0.43) like our BBC relatives and other stock block motors need to do to keep the cylinders stable. All of these issues we'll find out as we go, if we get more choices. Do we find how long a rod will fit and not mess up the ring placement to get some long rod advantage for our motors, 6.8s are out ther for BBC that drop on our cranks fro cheap, or do we use a short 09 rod. Do we start looking at EFI for better more effecient fuel curves, hydraulic roller cams now have cast iron gears so no more bronze distributor gears to wear out. Can we convert a cam belt drive for a W.There are some W guys already doing this stuff and hit problems they worked out along the way.

Using existing pieces to fit our off the beaten path motors is less expensive and uses new technology to build a stronger motor. If we don't discuss what's out there we'll still be stuck using 40 year old technology.

Off my soap box.

And Rich put me down for a set of heads and intake, will they match my Z-11 water pump?

 

[Skip FIx]

I guess we were both typing at the same time. We actually really agree on most of the stuff. Supporting the little guy designers so we have more options to try, where the Pontiac community is now. If they break we try something else, and get the word out. If it performs like a dog it can be posted here and we can all know it.I know my 409 found all the weak spots in a stock 64 Impala chassis to teach me!

Unfortunately our "global society" has alot of US shops getting "outsourced" in all fields, especialy engineering. Materials-even all the good crank manufacturers are using offshore steel in some of their products, often machining too. Often they are the only products still available now. Look at who wons most of the aftermarket products -all big corps, TRW, etc all one company.

With casting and CAD design we can have affordable small runs of products for small markets like W motors from little guys.

 

[dq409]

Back when Edelbrock was racing and winning ,building his reputation with his flathead mods and also building his name didn`t it become a fact later that he was cheating and using nitro or alcohol blend in his fuel that helped him win those races??no1:

Seems I heard that somewhere,,,dq

 

[4onthefloor]

They all did DQ !

 

[tripowerguy]

Back in the days that Vic Edlebrock raced flatheads the saying was gasoline was for washing parts. Roy