Edelbrock interested
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Timing Chain Cover
Thanks Fred, I don't care which one, I need a cover that won't flex like the stock ones do. Thanks again.
Tony
PS Motor and Trans are both put back together and are ready for the rail. Wish the aluminum heads and intake were ready I'd love to see them on the motor!!!!
Thanks Fred, I don't care which one, I need a cover that won't flex like the stock ones do. Thanks again.
Tony
PS Motor and Trans are both put back together and are ready for the rail. Wish the aluminum heads and intake were ready I'd love to see them on the motor!!!!
DQ...any input on what the timing is on getting these in our hands and how big the first run will be ? Looks like a lot of interest here....I saw those valve covers in one of those pics too...they look sharp...
4onthefloor said:
From what I`m told from Rich these heads and intake should be available late spring.
Rich wanted them to come out sooner as he had his part done last September and sent them to the machinist at that time. It is the machinist that was holding up the process as he had a break down on his CNC machine.
From what I`ve been told this guy is the best of the best and thats why Rich is sticking with him. He is well know with all the old time and best racers. He is the guy that did all the head work for Carroll Shelby and a ton of other high profile racers and builder over the years.
Also the heads are just a tich taller then the stock ones due to improved areas around the valve cover gasket area. The ridge at the gasket area is slightly taller to prevent the gasket from leaking and failure.
The intake is also just a bit taller then the stock dual quad manifold and should not be a problem with hood clearance.
I sure the carb setup is a square bore design to accept the AFB style carbs. Either way it would be very easy to modify the top plate to accept any carb design.
Hope this helps. dq
BTW, Vince might be a little slow on answering his email and such. Just be patient his plate is pretty full right now.
You also might contact Rich through a PM
This was posted in the Ebay threads by Ronnie Russell. Soooo, Rich`s new heads are in the ball park on cost with the stock iron heads!! But his are better !!
They were talking about a blower manifold for the lopo heads. It is a buy it now for $1,295 !!!http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8035780827&ru=http://motors.search.ebay.com:80/8035780827_W0QQfromZR40QQfviZ1
Once again right in the park for the new 690 manifold.
funny how things can be put into perspective eh?,,dq
IgnitionMan
Banned
Yup, right, yeah, lots of really bad misinformation on the Pontiac Edelbrock heads.
Well, if you consider posting the real truth, that it takes a BUNCH of money for porting and other "improvements" on them, just to make a mediocre Pontiac head out of them, well, yup, truth. Even Edelbrock didn't fix the inlet ports and especially the stupidest exhaust ports in the industry. They had a blank, clean page to start with, and that magic to some word came screaming out, "aluminum", with the ball being dropped directly after that..
But, if anyone believes the misinformation as to Pontiac Edelbrocks out of the box being THE performance Pontiac heads of all time, I'd say to get into contact with a KNOWLEDGEABLE Pontiac head porter and ASK THEM what it really does take, in both time and money, to get a set of Edelbrocks to work. Get the real dead straight from the guy who works the portng tools.
I've done a few sets of Pontiac Edelbrocks for myself and others, picked up off places like Sleaze-Bay, for lots less than the original costs, because they DIDN'T WORK for the original buyers. I always mill the droop snoot exhaust port curvatures off those junkers and weld/machine a nice set of exhaust ports onto them, much like a big block Chevy exhaust flange, then build a real set of headers for them, and that helps a bunch. Too bad Edelbrock didn't figure that one out, but then, Pontiac people just saw that word, "aluminum", and were stricken absolutely speachless.
The Pontiac blocks mentioned above follow the same word association, "aluminum", with very, very little updating. They still suffer from no extended pan rails and cross bolted mains, and the same weak lifter bore areas, and the lack of adequate air area inside the block, especially when big strokers are used, not really much of an improvement, even when that same blank clean page was put in front of the "redesigners", only thing seen was that word, "aluminum". But, don't feel bad, Pontiac owners, Buick guys are the same, they already have a blueprint for a better main design, in the updated 215 as the cross bolt Rover block, also aluminum, and older Ford FE and Mopar Hemi engines, but they remain blind and only concerned with that same one word, "aluminum".
If it were me, I'd support anyone but Edelbrock. Why give that bunch of cutthroats the info for them to build junk that will only just make profit for Edelbrock, when there are serious W engine people developing better stuff right now.
And, yup, I am both a W and Pontiac person, along with most other American makes. I own a LOT of musclecars, and am not impressed by the single word "aluminum", it still has to be designed and built right, not just copied for profit.
Well, if you consider posting the real truth, that it takes a BUNCH of money for porting and other "improvements" on them, just to make a mediocre Pontiac head out of them, well, yup, truth. Even Edelbrock didn't fix the inlet ports and especially the stupidest exhaust ports in the industry. They had a blank, clean page to start with, and that magic to some word came screaming out, "aluminum", with the ball being dropped directly after that..
But, if anyone believes the misinformation as to Pontiac Edelbrocks out of the box being THE performance Pontiac heads of all time, I'd say to get into contact with a KNOWLEDGEABLE Pontiac head porter and ASK THEM what it really does take, in both time and money, to get a set of Edelbrocks to work. Get the real dead straight from the guy who works the portng tools.
I've done a few sets of Pontiac Edelbrocks for myself and others, picked up off places like Sleaze-Bay, for lots less than the original costs, because they DIDN'T WORK for the original buyers. I always mill the droop snoot exhaust port curvatures off those junkers and weld/machine a nice set of exhaust ports onto them, much like a big block Chevy exhaust flange, then build a real set of headers for them, and that helps a bunch. Too bad Edelbrock didn't figure that one out, but then, Pontiac people just saw that word, "aluminum", and were stricken absolutely speachless.
The Pontiac blocks mentioned above follow the same word association, "aluminum", with very, very little updating. They still suffer from no extended pan rails and cross bolted mains, and the same weak lifter bore areas, and the lack of adequate air area inside the block, especially when big strokers are used, not really much of an improvement, even when that same blank clean page was put in front of the "redesigners", only thing seen was that word, "aluminum". But, don't feel bad, Pontiac owners, Buick guys are the same, they already have a blueprint for a better main design, in the updated 215 as the cross bolt Rover block, also aluminum, and older Ford FE and Mopar Hemi engines, but they remain blind and only concerned with that same one word, "aluminum".
If it were me, I'd support anyone but Edelbrock. Why give that bunch of cutthroats the info for them to build junk that will only just make profit for Edelbrock, when there are serious W engine people developing better stuff right now.
And, yup, I am both a W and Pontiac person, along with most other American makes. I own a LOT of musclecars, and am not impressed by the single word "aluminum", it still has to be designed and built right, not just copied for profit.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Ignitionman, I agree it should be built right. I've got my own flowbench so I CAN document flow. I also have a personal set of RAIV heads I raced, have flowed most iron Pontiac heads out there ported and non ported. The RAIVs were $2000 grand BARE in 1987! And kick any other iron head in the rear.The Edelbrocks DO flow with them out of the box on anybodies flow bench,$1800 out of the box.
The "market" they were shooting for was for stock stuff to bolt on and have a head to flow with the best iron heads that are few and far between for the street/strip crowd. Could Edelbrock have made a "better" head-yes by all means a better swirl chanber instead of a generic one, a Taller intake port yes, they have a 215cc port that is bigger than the 154cc D ports and my 185cc RAIVs stil feeding a 400-455 ci motor, the size that feed alot of SBCs. Better short turn radius -yes but then you get high ports and drop some intake availablity. You have many in the Pontiac community that think it is sacriledge to have to shift a 455 over 5500-"low rpm torque motors". My pump gas motor with CNC ports has a HP peak ar 6300 with a flat tappet hydraulic! So I ma shunned by some for suggesting that.
No one is routinely welding on the exhaust ports of any of the name high end Pontiac builders. The D shape Edelbrock has can easily flow 75% of the intake with just a small amount of work This is even with a smaller than Pontiac factory 1.66 valve. The intakes can flow 320 cfm with a 2.11 intake valve. Wide ports and a 2.19 getting 340-360 depending opn the porter and flow bench.
You can buy the heads semi machined with no pushrod holes to offset drill for them and offset shafts/lifters for better flow numbers on the intake side. Right now Ray Cox is selling the heads and intake that got his stock suspension 78 TA in the 8s for $5500. No welded exhaust ports.
You obviously have NOT personally looked at the Pontiac aftermarket blocks, they are all SOLID in the lifter valley, with 8 1/2" drain holes plus lifter holes only. The cast iron on my KRE block feels about 1" thick, makes a W or BBC look wimpy in the lifter bore area. Yes factory blocks can break out lifter bores with aggressive rollers with 200 degrees or greater @ .200. The IA 2 block has registered mains and the oil pan rail dropped to accomadate this. Even factory Pontiac blocks have dowel located main caps. Ther is only one aluminum block that Butler sells that is copied off these new iron blocks and it has replaceable sleeves. Any of the blocks can come dry decked to elininate the wiorry of water blown head gaskets with only 4 head bolts per cylinder and high compression or boost. They all take 4.5 strokers with no grinding(that's a 3/4" stroker over a 400 over a 1/4 stroker over a 455. They can be made up to 4.450 bores really unbshrouding the valves. Until they change the bore spacing whicj would mean no factory bolt pattern heads or intakes fit they are limited.
Yes there are lots of guys that don't match components to take advantage of the E heads flow potential, for them a 220 cfm D port head with a .450 lift cam shifted at 5500 is perfect. But then mine running 9" slicks through mufflers kick alot of minitubbed Dominator carbed BBCs for the same reason. Carb,intake heads, rpm range, convertor,gears and tires all have to complement each other.
Most of the heavy hitter Buick guys I know use mian girdles for their blocks, TA Performance has a nice aluminum head that flows like the factory experimental Stage 2 head.
One thing for a racing head that is a big advantage in aluminum is repairablity. Get the mixture a little lean especially with spray, or boost there you go. Most of the 10.5 tire class guys us esome kind of power adder. A small porting water pin hole in an iron head is around $500 for Indy Heads to repair, a nationaly know shop.
Yes Edelbrock has alot of hype on their stuff, they shoot for as big a market as they figure would best sell, alot is mainly street stuff. So who knows where a W head would fit if they made one, a masaged 348 head or one better than a 690, who knows the market they might shoot for. Their Pontiac head has been about the only easily modified head available until this year, not counting the Wentzlers that take too much labor for the average Joe that is used to ported 240cfm iron heads.
Do a search for AllPontiac, Jim Butler Performance, KRE, SD performance in Canada and you can see what really get done on E heads and the next generation peformance heads and blocks that are getting Pontiacs competive in the heads up classes.
Until Rich's come out what heads or even intakes are out there for us W guys that use new technology designs?? I'm sure his wil be a better performance slant than anything Edelbrock would bring out. We dream of Z -11 stuff, get lucky and have 690/583 stuff with intakes that make 90 degree turns in the runners! Or the Offy semi single plane intake.
The "market" they were shooting for was for stock stuff to bolt on and have a head to flow with the best iron heads that are few and far between for the street/strip crowd. Could Edelbrock have made a "better" head-yes by all means a better swirl chanber instead of a generic one, a Taller intake port yes, they have a 215cc port that is bigger than the 154cc D ports and my 185cc RAIVs stil feeding a 400-455 ci motor, the size that feed alot of SBCs. Better short turn radius -yes but then you get high ports and drop some intake availablity. You have many in the Pontiac community that think it is sacriledge to have to shift a 455 over 5500-"low rpm torque motors". My pump gas motor with CNC ports has a HP peak ar 6300 with a flat tappet hydraulic! So I ma shunned by some for suggesting that.
No one is routinely welding on the exhaust ports of any of the name high end Pontiac builders. The D shape Edelbrock has can easily flow 75% of the intake with just a small amount of work This is even with a smaller than Pontiac factory 1.66 valve. The intakes can flow 320 cfm with a 2.11 intake valve. Wide ports and a 2.19 getting 340-360 depending opn the porter and flow bench.
You can buy the heads semi machined with no pushrod holes to offset drill for them and offset shafts/lifters for better flow numbers on the intake side. Right now Ray Cox is selling the heads and intake that got his stock suspension 78 TA in the 8s for $5500. No welded exhaust ports.
You obviously have NOT personally looked at the Pontiac aftermarket blocks, they are all SOLID in the lifter valley, with 8 1/2" drain holes plus lifter holes only. The cast iron on my KRE block feels about 1" thick, makes a W or BBC look wimpy in the lifter bore area. Yes factory blocks can break out lifter bores with aggressive rollers with 200 degrees or greater @ .200. The IA 2 block has registered mains and the oil pan rail dropped to accomadate this. Even factory Pontiac blocks have dowel located main caps. Ther is only one aluminum block that Butler sells that is copied off these new iron blocks and it has replaceable sleeves. Any of the blocks can come dry decked to elininate the wiorry of water blown head gaskets with only 4 head bolts per cylinder and high compression or boost. They all take 4.5 strokers with no grinding(that's a 3/4" stroker over a 400 over a 1/4 stroker over a 455. They can be made up to 4.450 bores really unbshrouding the valves. Until they change the bore spacing whicj would mean no factory bolt pattern heads or intakes fit they are limited.
Yes there are lots of guys that don't match components to take advantage of the E heads flow potential, for them a 220 cfm D port head with a .450 lift cam shifted at 5500 is perfect. But then mine running 9" slicks through mufflers kick alot of minitubbed Dominator carbed BBCs for the same reason. Carb,intake heads, rpm range, convertor,gears and tires all have to complement each other.
Most of the heavy hitter Buick guys I know use mian girdles for their blocks, TA Performance has a nice aluminum head that flows like the factory experimental Stage 2 head.
One thing for a racing head that is a big advantage in aluminum is repairablity. Get the mixture a little lean especially with spray, or boost there you go. Most of the 10.5 tire class guys us esome kind of power adder. A small porting water pin hole in an iron head is around $500 for Indy Heads to repair, a nationaly know shop.
Yes Edelbrock has alot of hype on their stuff, they shoot for as big a market as they figure would best sell, alot is mainly street stuff. So who knows where a W head would fit if they made one, a masaged 348 head or one better than a 690, who knows the market they might shoot for. Their Pontiac head has been about the only easily modified head available until this year, not counting the Wentzlers that take too much labor for the average Joe that is used to ported 240cfm iron heads.
Do a search for AllPontiac, Jim Butler Performance, KRE, SD performance in Canada and you can see what really get done on E heads and the next generation peformance heads and blocks that are getting Pontiacs competive in the heads up classes.
Until Rich's come out what heads or even intakes are out there for us W guys that use new technology designs?? I'm sure his wil be a better performance slant than anything Edelbrock would bring out. We dream of Z -11 stuff, get lucky and have 690/583 stuff with intakes that make 90 degree turns in the runners! Or the Offy semi single plane intake.
Edelbrock is what it is!
SkipFIx, very well said. Good to see someone that does their homework and knows what they are talking about.
SkipFIx, very well said. Good to see someone that does their homework and knows what they are talking about.
Skip you are right on the money about a market for the average joe who wants to bolt on a set of heads or intake and make his ride a rocket. There is a place for the all out heads and intakes that cost more than most of us have in the whole car but there should be a much bigger market for the street crowd who want to improve what they can get in stock stuff. Both worlds can be accomidated and I hope they are.I hope that Edlebrock builds some W stuff as well as the new ones that DQ's friend is working on. Edlebrock's will probably not put out as much HP but then will be priced were the average guy can afford to buy. Let's face it not everyone has $8000 dollars laying around to buy a set of heads and intake but they can come up with a couple of thousand.:eek: A couple of thousand I wish!
Roy
Roy
Firepower354
Well Known Member
The following is coffee induced:
If they do it, Edelbrock will be close to the 2K mark, and likely on the short side of it at that. And we should all rejoice. Nope, it won't be a triple throw down race type part requiring Jesel rockers, dedicated manifolding and headers, and 7500 rpm to use their breathing ability. If they did, all 14 of the guys who really need them would line up, wallets in hand. Custom headers are at least a grand, sheetmetal manifolds are $2500ish. You wouldn't let a high end buildup suck air through a mass-produced compromise manifold, right? Runner length and diameter, plenum volume all need to be carefully tailored to get every last horsepower. See the cardboard and duct tape covers in ProStock? The BILLET intakes on Andersons ride?
Check out how much airflow you really need, providing everything else is in line. http://www.bgsoflex.com/flowcalc1.html
Everything else isn't. The available manifolding sucks. Awfulhoser keeps pumping out the same miserable dinosaurs that were good enough in the 50's and 60's to beat out the even lamer stockers. Mixture distribution, taper, entrance angles, yikes! Cleaned up 690's with a modern dual plane 2x4 (see SBC Air-Gap RMP 2x4) should be good for 500 easy horsepower. The pics of the new one in the works shares the too short runners and open plenum with the O, not ideal for area under the curve powerbands needed with large bodied cars....
I'm still not biting on a set of even super trick aluminum heads costing six grand! My beloved 392 can get light headed for under $3200, breathe all 1x4 moderny for $275(hotheads). At Batten we sold Olds aluminum heads that nearly doubled stock flow, updated everything and still around 3K ported, $500 for a Dominator manifold (our last 513 incher build made 755hp at 6800). You can get AMC, FE, Cad cheaper for Petes sake!
Big port heads have gone all silly $ wise. Cammer heads are 10k and up, Tunnel Ports over 5k. Try to find MaxWedges. Just because the price of stockers has followed the recent musclecar "surge in value" :eek: shouldn't have anything to do with cost of new production. CNC programmers are all over. Machine time is reasonable. Fixtures are no sweat. We switched from Glock barrels, to mag Liberty trans cases, to ZZ4 heads, to Mack diesel heads, to one off wheels and back in minutes. Sure there are costs of reverse-engineering and/or clean sheet design, and if there is little chance of mass production the costs have to be spread thicker.
Maybe if we beg and plead with bigE, line all our W heads up on their datum ends decks facing Detroit, and at 4:09PM PST every NHRA Saturday we face SoCal and say "please" they'll make the heads an updated low perf head, with enough runner meat to CNC port them to a better than 690 spec? One casting would do nicely. A couple manifolds to compliment each shouldn't be too much more work.
No, their Poncho offering isn't the best head going, but they are better than factory parts. There are other race heads for the guys that need them. Offset roller lifters, moved pushrods, better chambers, ports to breathe heavy. Even their SBC Perf series is not much better than stock but sell like crazy and don't cost too much. As far as getting "experts" involved, Vic's gang does know a bit about airflow... Flow vs velocity, production based component compatibilty, etc. No need to re-invent the wheel, just make it roll smoother.
If they do it, Edelbrock will be close to the 2K mark, and likely on the short side of it at that. And we should all rejoice. Nope, it won't be a triple throw down race type part requiring Jesel rockers, dedicated manifolding and headers, and 7500 rpm to use their breathing ability. If they did, all 14 of the guys who really need them would line up, wallets in hand. Custom headers are at least a grand, sheetmetal manifolds are $2500ish. You wouldn't let a high end buildup suck air through a mass-produced compromise manifold, right? Runner length and diameter, plenum volume all need to be carefully tailored to get every last horsepower. See the cardboard and duct tape covers in ProStock? The BILLET intakes on Andersons ride?
Check out how much airflow you really need, providing everything else is in line. http://www.bgsoflex.com/flowcalc1.html
Everything else isn't. The available manifolding sucks. Awfulhoser keeps pumping out the same miserable dinosaurs that were good enough in the 50's and 60's to beat out the even lamer stockers. Mixture distribution, taper, entrance angles, yikes! Cleaned up 690's with a modern dual plane 2x4 (see SBC Air-Gap RMP 2x4) should be good for 500 easy horsepower. The pics of the new one in the works shares the too short runners and open plenum with the O, not ideal for area under the curve powerbands needed with large bodied cars....
I'm still not biting on a set of even super trick aluminum heads costing six grand! My beloved 392 can get light headed for under $3200, breathe all 1x4 moderny for $275(hotheads). At Batten we sold Olds aluminum heads that nearly doubled stock flow, updated everything and still around 3K ported, $500 for a Dominator manifold (our last 513 incher build made 755hp at 6800). You can get AMC, FE, Cad cheaper for Petes sake!
Big port heads have gone all silly $ wise. Cammer heads are 10k and up, Tunnel Ports over 5k. Try to find MaxWedges. Just because the price of stockers has followed the recent musclecar "surge in value" :eek: shouldn't have anything to do with cost of new production. CNC programmers are all over. Machine time is reasonable. Fixtures are no sweat. We switched from Glock barrels, to mag Liberty trans cases, to ZZ4 heads, to Mack diesel heads, to one off wheels and back in minutes. Sure there are costs of reverse-engineering and/or clean sheet design, and if there is little chance of mass production the costs have to be spread thicker.
Maybe if we beg and plead with bigE, line all our W heads up on their datum ends decks facing Detroit, and at 4:09PM PST every NHRA Saturday we face SoCal and say "please" they'll make the heads an updated low perf head, with enough runner meat to CNC port them to a better than 690 spec? One casting would do nicely. A couple manifolds to compliment each shouldn't be too much more work.
No, their Poncho offering isn't the best head going, but they are better than factory parts. There are other race heads for the guys that need them. Offset roller lifters, moved pushrods, better chambers, ports to breathe heavy. Even their SBC Perf series is not much better than stock but sell like crazy and don't cost too much. As far as getting "experts" involved, Vic's gang does know a bit about airflow... Flow vs velocity, production based component compatibilty, etc. No need to re-invent the wheel, just make it roll smoother.
tripowerguy said:. Let's face it not everyone has $8000 dollars laying around to buy a set of heads and intake but they can come up with a couple of thousand.:eek: A couple of thousand I wish!
Daves point about the "Aluminum" factor and the fact that the parts should be designed by someone with the knowledge of the engine the parts are being built for was the point I was glad to hear!
Edelbrock makes some fine stuff and I think we all can say we have or have had a part or two of his on our cars !
But you can also get some better parts with comparible prices to off the wall high end stuff !
Name isn`t everything,,,
As far as prices go getting a bolt on performance head and manifold combo in the $4500-5000 range that will significantly incress your performance IMO is a winner !!
How much would it cost to take your W engine now with the parts that are navailible and make it go as fast as these new parts with make it go?
5 grand,, i don`t think so 10 grand,,, now you might be getting closer !!
I`ve talked to several W block racers that tell me that last second over stock cost them well over 10 grand !!
And thanks skip for the detailed pontiac info ! I think we all know have a Poncho friend or two !!
dq
IgnitionMan
Banned
Fathead, you are a raving, flaming idiot.
Skip, you are not telling the whole story about Edelbrock, and you well know it.
Anyone who wants to know what really goes on with Edelbrock Pontiac heads only needs to go to the UNBIASED Pontiac site, classicalpontiac.com and ask there, NOT at the circus of Performance Years, where Skip is a poster, along with many, many other biased posters and just plain misinformers of how it really is.
Skip, I, too, have my own flow bench, and consider it a very small part of a vital tool network for head development. But, why is it, you only want to speak of flow, when there are many, many more issues, a couple far more important than Mississippi River flow numbers? Why is that, Skippy? All we ever hear about is flow this, flow that, why is it we NEVER hear about the angles of mixture paths into the chamber and exit, why is it we never hear of flame propagation? Why is that, Skippy? Because people like you HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE, you are just as jmezmurized by "FLOW" as you are with "aluminum" and "they dyno said ............". Mostly useless stuff on its own, but grafted together with much more input than YOU want people to see, and that you aren't even aware of, a good deal. YOUR way, loser all the way around. Do YOU really know just where the mix is going in the chamber after it gets past the valve? I severely doubt it, and that makes all the difference.
Pontiac had a great head in the tunnel port, but did Edelbrock make that one in "aluminum", heck no, people like Fathead just rolled their eyes up and saw "aluminum" and the Pontiac community got Butkiss. All Edelbrock had to to to the tunnel heads was incorporate a new heart shaped combustion chamber and a reasonable, shorter length exhaust port over the droop snoot nightmare, and it would have been a winner, instead of the loser it still is and will now remain. And, please, no snippits about a comparable inlet manifold and/or headers, Edelbrock manufactures both of those products, and could, if they wanted to, make much better for the Pontiacs.
Heck, if Edelbrock wanted to, they could have made a head with canted valves for Pontiacs, that would have been better than what they offer now.
And, if anyone thinks Edelbrock will be fiar with them, here's a TRUE Edelbrock event that happened to Hotchkiss Suspension. A few yearsa ago, Edelbrock came to Hotchkiss and asked them to design a shock and suspension parts for them to market, with the promise that if they worked, Hotchkiss would be contracted to manufacture all Edelbrock's parts for sale. An agreement was struck, and Hotchkiss went to work on a great integrated system, worked better than the Horchkiss stuff, and all was well during the develoipment process. When Edelbrock had the system in place there, they then told Hoitchkiss they were no longer needed and the deal wouldn't go to contract. Edelbrock patented his "new" systems and shocks, and Hotchkiss was left to founder in their own development wake and foam.
For over a year, it was touch and go for Hotchkiss after the Edelbrock debacle. Finally, Hotchkiss did develope a better system than the one they did for Edelbrock, and are somewhat thrving today, but it was almost curtains for another small business that Edelbrock decieved and then tried to silence.
DO ANY OF YOU WANT THAT FOR YOUR W SYSTEMS? Keep this Edelbrock idiocy up and youi just might get what you despise the most, a monopoly on aluminum heads, from a real predator in the aftermarket industry.
I stand with what I have posted here, no apologies, no retreat, I stand my ground on this, because it is the real truth!
A lot of people know I developed and designed my own ignition system conversions, and that is my daily business. but not many know where I came from and what I have done as a "second job" for the last 8 years. I have been a development engineer for mainly, cylinder heads and powertrains for the MotoGP part of the World Championship Roadracing. The first 6 years, it was with Honda, and the RC211V, a five cylinder V style engine, 990ccs, and then, for the last 3, for Yamaha and its inline 990cc 4, for the current and previous 6 time World Champion, Valentino Rossi. The last 990cc redesign was in the wall between the water jacket and one side of the inlet port. We had a dead fill spot in the chamber from the center inlet valve guide, didn't fill as it should, so I changed the thickness of the wall, to get the mix to hook into the chamber where we wanted it. You see, it really isn't flow all the way, but things like HEAT of the wall and positioning of other items, that also cause mix to go to the right places, Skippy. The change in the heat at the port wall, changed the flow rate in that one area, changing the path of the mix, for the better. That redesign added 1 full horsepower and cured the dead spot. 1 horsepower in a 990cc engine is a big deal. It's like 20 horse in a 455 Pontiac.
I am now working on the 2007 800cc engine, have 223 horsepower from it, a touch less than I want. That is 800ccs, UNDER a litre, normally aspirated, EFI. What does your 455 make for horsepower, Skippy? 800ccs x 9 is 7,200ccs, someplace near a 455, and 223 x 9 would make just at someplace like 2007 horsepower, but lets be realistic (something you choose not to be), and half that number for our motorcycle engine, a 4 cylinder, just to get a perspective, still normally aspirated, just EFI'd, 1003-1/2 horses. Show me a Pontiac engine that comes close to that and is still extremely street driveable, reliable and gets reasonable mileage. Aoin't ever gonna happen, why, well, because of people like the Edelbrock "Fun Team". BTW, more than one of the 800cc engines have run full throttle for over 100 hours consecutively. Do that with a Pontiac V8 engine. The 990 was stopped at 400 hours in its tests, just no reason to go any further, no damage, no failures, NONE.
I also worked for Zora Arkus-Duntov at Special Projects for two years as well.
Now, Skippy, what have YOU done for the sport/hobby in your daily doings? I doubt much at all.
Wise up, people, Edelbrock YOU DO NOT NEED. Support the serious about W engine developer people out there, not some scammers that are proven predators in the aftermarket.
The choice is all yours.
Spin on, Skippy.
Skip, you are not telling the whole story about Edelbrock, and you well know it.
Anyone who wants to know what really goes on with Edelbrock Pontiac heads only needs to go to the UNBIASED Pontiac site, classicalpontiac.com and ask there, NOT at the circus of Performance Years, where Skip is a poster, along with many, many other biased posters and just plain misinformers of how it really is.
Skip, I, too, have my own flow bench, and consider it a very small part of a vital tool network for head development. But, why is it, you only want to speak of flow, when there are many, many more issues, a couple far more important than Mississippi River flow numbers? Why is that, Skippy? All we ever hear about is flow this, flow that, why is it we NEVER hear about the angles of mixture paths into the chamber and exit, why is it we never hear of flame propagation? Why is that, Skippy? Because people like you HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE, you are just as jmezmurized by "FLOW" as you are with "aluminum" and "they dyno said ............". Mostly useless stuff on its own, but grafted together with much more input than YOU want people to see, and that you aren't even aware of, a good deal. YOUR way, loser all the way around. Do YOU really know just where the mix is going in the chamber after it gets past the valve? I severely doubt it, and that makes all the difference.
Pontiac had a great head in the tunnel port, but did Edelbrock make that one in "aluminum", heck no, people like Fathead just rolled their eyes up and saw "aluminum" and the Pontiac community got Butkiss. All Edelbrock had to to to the tunnel heads was incorporate a new heart shaped combustion chamber and a reasonable, shorter length exhaust port over the droop snoot nightmare, and it would have been a winner, instead of the loser it still is and will now remain. And, please, no snippits about a comparable inlet manifold and/or headers, Edelbrock manufactures both of those products, and could, if they wanted to, make much better for the Pontiacs.
Heck, if Edelbrock wanted to, they could have made a head with canted valves for Pontiacs, that would have been better than what they offer now.
And, if anyone thinks Edelbrock will be fiar with them, here's a TRUE Edelbrock event that happened to Hotchkiss Suspension. A few yearsa ago, Edelbrock came to Hotchkiss and asked them to design a shock and suspension parts for them to market, with the promise that if they worked, Hotchkiss would be contracted to manufacture all Edelbrock's parts for sale. An agreement was struck, and Hotchkiss went to work on a great integrated system, worked better than the Horchkiss stuff, and all was well during the develoipment process. When Edelbrock had the system in place there, they then told Hoitchkiss they were no longer needed and the deal wouldn't go to contract. Edelbrock patented his "new" systems and shocks, and Hotchkiss was left to founder in their own development wake and foam.
For over a year, it was touch and go for Hotchkiss after the Edelbrock debacle. Finally, Hotchkiss did develope a better system than the one they did for Edelbrock, and are somewhat thrving today, but it was almost curtains for another small business that Edelbrock decieved and then tried to silence.
DO ANY OF YOU WANT THAT FOR YOUR W SYSTEMS? Keep this Edelbrock idiocy up and youi just might get what you despise the most, a monopoly on aluminum heads, from a real predator in the aftermarket industry.
I stand with what I have posted here, no apologies, no retreat, I stand my ground on this, because it is the real truth!
A lot of people know I developed and designed my own ignition system conversions, and that is my daily business. but not many know where I came from and what I have done as a "second job" for the last 8 years. I have been a development engineer for mainly, cylinder heads and powertrains for the MotoGP part of the World Championship Roadracing. The first 6 years, it was with Honda, and the RC211V, a five cylinder V style engine, 990ccs, and then, for the last 3, for Yamaha and its inline 990cc 4, for the current and previous 6 time World Champion, Valentino Rossi. The last 990cc redesign was in the wall between the water jacket and one side of the inlet port. We had a dead fill spot in the chamber from the center inlet valve guide, didn't fill as it should, so I changed the thickness of the wall, to get the mix to hook into the chamber where we wanted it. You see, it really isn't flow all the way, but things like HEAT of the wall and positioning of other items, that also cause mix to go to the right places, Skippy. The change in the heat at the port wall, changed the flow rate in that one area, changing the path of the mix, for the better. That redesign added 1 full horsepower and cured the dead spot. 1 horsepower in a 990cc engine is a big deal. It's like 20 horse in a 455 Pontiac.
I am now working on the 2007 800cc engine, have 223 horsepower from it, a touch less than I want. That is 800ccs, UNDER a litre, normally aspirated, EFI. What does your 455 make for horsepower, Skippy? 800ccs x 9 is 7,200ccs, someplace near a 455, and 223 x 9 would make just at someplace like 2007 horsepower, but lets be realistic (something you choose not to be), and half that number for our motorcycle engine, a 4 cylinder, just to get a perspective, still normally aspirated, just EFI'd, 1003-1/2 horses. Show me a Pontiac engine that comes close to that and is still extremely street driveable, reliable and gets reasonable mileage. Aoin't ever gonna happen, why, well, because of people like the Edelbrock "Fun Team". BTW, more than one of the 800cc engines have run full throttle for over 100 hours consecutively. Do that with a Pontiac V8 engine. The 990 was stopped at 400 hours in its tests, just no reason to go any further, no damage, no failures, NONE.
I also worked for Zora Arkus-Duntov at Special Projects for two years as well.
Now, Skippy, what have YOU done for the sport/hobby in your daily doings? I doubt much at all.
Wise up, people, Edelbrock YOU DO NOT NEED. Support the serious about W engine developer people out there, not some scammers that are proven predators in the aftermarket.
The choice is all yours.
Spin on, Skippy.
IgnitionMan
Banned
Another Edelbrtock/Pontiac factoid, consider this, and go ask at the two Pontiac sites.
Edelbrock manufactures and markets a "Performer" inlet manifold for Pontiac. It is of aluminum construction, and according to Edelbrock, revised to give more power and torque over a stock Pontiac Q-jet cast iron manifold.
Ask just about anyone who has used these manifolds on their Pontiacs, and you will get one of two answers, 1, it didn't do anything, or 2, it was somewhat weaker performance than the stock cast iron Q-jet manifold, and cost one heck of a lot more than a stock manifold.
Funny that Olds and Buick guys have the exact same opinions about their Edelbrock "Performer" "aluminum" inlet manifolds over stockers as well. Ask at oldspower.com and V8buick.com or buickthunder.com.
This is just plain typical Edelbrock, they make stuff just to make money, not to improve performance.
Please don't get me wrong, Edelbrock does have a few items they manufacture that ARE great products, but not then ones we have been discussing here, and still, even those good items are way overpriced from Edelbrock. Giant company, giant pricing for a lot less than it should be.
Edelbrock manufactures and markets a "Performer" inlet manifold for Pontiac. It is of aluminum construction, and according to Edelbrock, revised to give more power and torque over a stock Pontiac Q-jet cast iron manifold.
Ask just about anyone who has used these manifolds on their Pontiacs, and you will get one of two answers, 1, it didn't do anything, or 2, it was somewhat weaker performance than the stock cast iron Q-jet manifold, and cost one heck of a lot more than a stock manifold.
Funny that Olds and Buick guys have the exact same opinions about their Edelbrock "Performer" "aluminum" inlet manifolds over stockers as well. Ask at oldspower.com and V8buick.com or buickthunder.com.
This is just plain typical Edelbrock, they make stuff just to make money, not to improve performance.
Please don't get me wrong, Edelbrock does have a few items they manufacture that ARE great products, but not then ones we have been discussing here, and still, even those good items are way overpriced from Edelbrock. Giant company, giant pricing for a lot less than it should be.
Firepower354
Well Known Member
A modern multi valved OHC clean sheet small displacement superfunded engine vs. a near 50 year old design stretched over 50% larger than the original that was never intended to do anything but shove overweight barges up and down the road seems a bit like comparing apples and aardvarks. You can't make chicken salad from chicken s#@t, at least not a good chicken salad. The market's a bit thin for the MotoGP beasts as well, with one maybe two guys who can hold on to the modern "diesel" roadrace bikes, much like there's only a few who really need 400cfm BBPoncho heads who wouldn't just go BigChief unless their ego (Ego? Who's got an ego?) requires they have the bestest "real" Pontiac/Olds/Buick/AMC/International Harvester powered thingie ever. But is it still "real" if you change the port location, valve angles, etc, ad nauseum???? the Performers mentioned (OK bashed) were older designs and are indeed in need of rework. The bigE recent stuff actually works pretty well.
Peep!---------------------------------
I agree...no offense everyone but I don't give a rats *** about Pontiac heads or Hondas..I was a member of one of those Pontiac boards when I had some old aluminum Poncho...to say they were passionate about those Ponchos is an understatement ! I just think it would be cool to get some new W stuff to market so we can keep whipping on those Pontiac motors.
IgnitionMan
Banned
Firepower, you might want to make sure both Fathead and Skippy read your posts, as they just don't seem to get the real world picture about all this Edelbrock stupidity.
And, yes, I get very passionate about my W engine cars, and my Pontiacs, Biucks and Olds powered cars, along with the Chevy non-W stuff, the Fords and Mopars I own, and especially the bikes I work on as my hobby, the MotoGP stuff I also design and revise and the vintage kawasaki two stroke roadrace bikes I race as well. In fact, I am going to Lafuna Seca to race both an H1R and H2R this weekend.
Skippy isn't the only person that likes Pontiacs, and he certainly isn't the only person that knows about them, and Fathead is not the only person that loves his W cars, I do the exact same. I just wish I had the opportunity to get that all aluminum W engine out of the Special Projects division I worked in. I figure that if I had asked my boss, Zora may well have just given it to me to get it out of the building. Sure wish I knew where it was now. Hindsight really is 20/20!
And, yes, I get very passionate about my W engine cars, and my Pontiacs, Biucks and Olds powered cars, along with the Chevy non-W stuff, the Fords and Mopars I own, and especially the bikes I work on as my hobby, the MotoGP stuff I also design and revise and the vintage kawasaki two stroke roadrace bikes I race as well. In fact, I am going to Lafuna Seca to race both an H1R and H2R this weekend.
Skippy isn't the only person that likes Pontiacs, and he certainly isn't the only person that knows about them, and Fathead is not the only person that loves his W cars, I do the exact same. I just wish I had the opportunity to get that all aluminum W engine out of the Special Projects division I worked in. I figure that if I had asked my boss, Zora may well have just given it to me to get it out of the building. Sure wish I knew where it was now. Hindsight really is 20/20!
Not so bad after all
IgnitionMan said:Fathead, you are a raving, flaming idiot.
I may have to give Dave another chance, people usually have to meet me face to face before they figure out that I'm an idiot