More Problems w/409 HELP !!!!!

[Nuts]

Please help.... I'm running out of time and patience !!!!! with the 409 conversion in the BelAir.

I used the bellhousing and clutch from the 327 on the 409. They all fit no problem until I tried to bolt the starter from the 327 on. The starter hit the after market oil pan. I talked to Brouce at ShowCars and he told me I'd need one of the small high torque starters ??? I picked up one at Schucks Speed Shop and it doesn't line up with the holes in the block ???

This starter fits every other Chevy V8 ever made since tires first squealed down the road, so why not the 409 ??? Bruce said I would need a 164 tooth flywheel not the 154 tooth from the 327. I don't know from teeth, I was under the understanding, that as long as I used the bellhousing, flywheel and clutch everything would be fine, but it's not.... HELP, HELP, HELP

This is only the latest of a series on problem I encountered with this project, what's next ???? The motor and trans are in the car and everything is ready to go I believe, if I can fix this... Thanks for letting me vent and I appreciate your help.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Hang in there!

Nuts:

Don't despair, it's just nuts and bolts . I used one of those high torque mini starters from SC, bolted right up (to the block). It did manage to fry itself after just a short while (first night of breakin) but I sent it back and they forwarded a replacement, no charge. I went with a new Hayes flywheel (JEGs), 168 teeth I believe, and things mated up fine. I think you may have some mismatched parts? I don't know the SB parts well, perhaps others will help you out there.

Whenever you get to combining things from one year/model to the next, you can expect to have a few compatability issues. That is normal. Hang in there and you will be able to sort this one out. In the end you'll be satisfied and forget all the troubles and time spent .

Best,
TomK

 

[Impalaguru]

Nuts,
I've been EXACTLY where you are right now!!!!! I, too, switched to a 409 from a 327. Got the engine in there and the starter wouldn't bolt up.
Yes, you need a 168 tooth flywheel and a bellhousing to accpept that flywheel. I went with an iron, 552 bellhousing and a 168 tooth flywheel from show cars. You can use any 168 tooth flywheel for a chevy that is internally balanced. 400sb and 454 flywheels won't work.
Buy the 409 clutch fork, clutch rod swivel, 409 lower clutch rod and 409 bell crank. Your 62 bell crank MIGHT work. Check it against the bell cranks listed in the show cars catalog. They have measurements and angles and you should be able to figure out what you need.
Back to the starter problem. If you get a 552 bellhousing you need a starter that bolts to the bellhousing. If you get a 621 (396/427/454) bellhousing, you need a starter for a 409 with an automatic, which is the same starter they will give you if you had a 396/427 with auto or 4-speed. All the BBC starters bolt to the block with a diagonal bolt pattern. The 409 has the same bolt holes.
Does your car have the 3/8" fuel line? If if doesn't you'll want to re-rout it under the upper a-arm to keep it away from the exhaust manifold. VAPOR LOCK!! The 327s and 409s were like this as they had 3/8" fuel lines.
This should get you up and running. Not what you wanted to hear, I'm sure, but you're on the home stretch!!!
Ross

 

[Ronnie Russell]

I have traveled down the same road as Ross, it is an unpleasant road to visit. Get that beautiful new 409 in the car , install flywheel and bellhousing ( there all the same .arent they?) stick trans. in . All needed now is to hook up starter and fire that baby up. Uh Oh!! Starter drive doesnt reach flywheel!!!! How embarassing. Found a 621 bellhousing and 11 in. flywheel and finally got to drive the car. This happened many, many years ago, but it seems like yesterday. Ross has all the correct informantion, Nuts, just follow his advice and soon you will be driving. Good luck

 

[Nuts]

Okay I get it - More Money !!!!

Ross, Ronnie and Tom

Thanks for the excellent advice... Wonder why I didn't get this answer the when I asked the question while rounding up parts..

Okay so where do I look for the bellhousing and flywheel ? I have a two pieace cast bellhouing with these numbers J303, 3815891 that's sitting in the shop. Can't remember where I got it. What are my options for the flywheel, short of buying one from ShowCars, who is the most expensive anywhere ?

I guess making the big show next weekend is out for sure...

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, I was in the G.M. book researching flywheels for a customer and what I show is that all 11 in. flywheels are the same from 1955-64. If others have different info. , please say so. I bought my bellhousing from Phil Reed, but that was 15 to 18 years ago. You might try him as well as the other 409 outlets. If you need phone nos. , let me know and I will pm you some. Sorry I missed your question about this earlier, I would not want anyone to go through this needless trouble if I could stop it. Good luck,

 

[Ronnie Russell]

p.s. If you could figure out a 348 combo, it seems this would work. The key is the starter matches the bellhousing and flywheel. If you do go to 11 in., this will require 11 in clutch and pressure plate. MORE MONEY-- We use huge G.M. starter on race motor with Stefs pan and had no clearance problems so it is just the problem of making sure all parts match. As many 4 sp guys we have on this site surely they can add advice.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Aftermarket options

Since I had a bit of a "Frankenstein" engine, with components from all over the place, I went to JEGs and selected some quality parts from their catalog. Flywheel was a Hayes, balancer from ATI, stuff like that. Starter was the SC mini you stated earlier. Got the clutch parts from Ebay a long time ago. Everything went together well and seems to be operating OK.

I had a stock flywheel, balancer and starter, but thought it better to use that on the next build. I went with a Lakewood scattershield although I have a 553 bellhousing. Since it's a bit of a torque monster, and I value my appendages .

I did have a lot of trouble (fun?) massaging the pedals and linkage and bellcrank (Z-bar) pieces together, but that's because I used a combination of 1961 and 1962 parts. The SB bellcrank ended up being my final choice, after fitting up and observing two others I had acquired (one was the stock 409 bellcrank). I think I got it right, clutch feels OK to the foot, we shall see once I get her out after reassembly .

Good luck!

TomK

 

[raymar58409]

just a thought

I had a 409/425 in a 58 impala many years ago (about 1971) and I couldn't keep from taking the center out the 09 clutch disc. I switched over to an 11" taxi cab clutch (thats the way GM listed it) and that ended that problem. I don't remember how this happened, but the replacement crank in it was set up to accept either the powerglide or the turboglide. Problem with this was that it required different style pilot bearing to prevent the trans input shaft from moving forward and allowed the 3-4 shift collar to expose the synchro detents to pop out and lock it in 4th gear.
Ray

 

[Nuts]

No More Surprises Please

Okay so that I'm not chasing my tail, what are my options ???

I have a 1965 truck block that's been tricked out internal, an M21 Muncie 4 spd with 26 spine shaft....

What bellhousing do I need ? - What year car/truck to look for ??
What type of flywheel ?
What type of clutch assembly ?
What starter ?

Are there any other things I need to know ? The motor is in the car. I have all the brackets for Alt and PS, still looking for the A/C mounts. I have the pulleys that line up. If I can fix this starter, bellhousing, clutch thing I believe I'm set to go cruzing, BUT I'VE BEEN WRONG BEFORE, just ask my wife !!!!

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Call Phil Reed!

Nuts:

If you want "one stop shopping" and the correct parts to be sure, call, FAX or Email Phil Reed in KC:

Classic Motor Co. (Phil Reed)
PO Box 14398 10520 River Road
Kansas City, MO 64152
Phone: 816-587-1109 Fax: 816-587-6809
philreed@sound.net

You'll probably get Brad, who is very knowledgeable about what you will need. They have the stuff on the shelf, both new (clutch parts, flywheel) and used (such as the bellhousing). The pricing is fair. You have come so far in your restoration (we are all jealous!) and now you have the fabled "W", so finish her off right and go that extra mile .

I do have another option. I have all the parts you need to complete the build (except for that A/C bracket thingie). Ship the car to me this weekend, I guarantee I'll have it together within 24 beers . Don't need to come yourself, just ship the car to my house. I will do the install, then test the vehicle for up to 40 years, just make certain all the bugs are taken care of . You can have the car back for the 2045 season .

Just trying to cheer you up! You know I am absolutely daffy about those '62 Sport Coupes, especially your color combination.

Check into option #1 above. You'll be taken care of. With that car, you deserve the best!

Also, see previous post by Ross. He's hit the nail on the head as well!. That's why he's "Impalaguru"

Speedy recoveries and happy cruising. You are wayyyy ahead of me in my build!

TomK

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, TomK gives you the best way to get that machine on the road quick. One other suggestion, when and if you call Phil (or Brad) be sure to have all your casting nos. handy on the parts you already have. You never know, they may have alternatives that will allow you to use some of the parts you already have.

 

[PAINTJOHN1]

Nuts

Hi there,i might be able to help.I went threw the same problem a few months back.I missplaced my original bell housing and flywheel.My 409 motor was out of the car for 28 years and I had been running a small block.When time came for a total restoration I decided to put the 409 back in.Unfortunately I missplaced my bell housing,starter and flywheel.I had the exact same problems.What I did was to use the large bellhousing that came on big block Chevelles,Camaros and some small block Corvettes.It was bell housing number GM #3899621(called #621 in short),which will allow the 168 tooth flywheel to be mounted in car.You can use almost any 11" flywheel(I used 396/427 Camaro flywheel)as long as the flywheel is an internal balanced flywheel.The 409 motor does have starter bolts in the block,and by using this bellhousing you can use the staggered bolts pattern(3 bolts in triangle shape).Go to any upper end auto store and look through their books and you will find the starter listed.The bell housing is not numbers correct,it also does not have the top bolt whole that goes to the block,but it will work fine.You can use the correct throw out fork for that housing and also the correct flywheel shield that mounts in the bottom of the bell housing by the pan.I see these bell housings always on E-Bay under"Chevrolet Bellhousings".They normally sell from $130.00-$200.00 depending on condition.Flywheels can be bought from $30.00- $90.00 depending on condition.You might do better on price at some of the swap meets.Good luck,be patient it will all come together before you know it.

 

[Nuts]

In Spite of My best efforts !!!

Just an update.....

In spite of my best efforts the motor is in and all the drive train hooked up... I will install all the carbs and stuff on the top end to night and hope to have her running by tomorrow, (well it's a plan to start off with) with any luck at all...

I'll update when she is running.....

Thanks for all the help and patience !!!

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, you neglected to fill us in on how you solved the problems. How did you get the parts so fast? Does the starter make the motor go round and round? Good luck tomorrow. hope things go smooth.

 

[chev1960]

Hope this help ,I had the same problem ,but a friend of mine told me to use the flyweel and the starter from a chevrolet 366 big block for my 1965 409 , You know what it fit right there ,the starter bolt to the block perfect and safe me a lot of money.
chev1960

 

[LongIsland63SS409]

Nuts:

Nothing like hearing it run for the first time. Pictures!

Good luck.

Mike

 

[Nuts]

She's Real Fine - My 409 !!!!!

Okay, she up and running !!!!

Started right up the first time and ran pretty good. Had an oil leak, so I shut her down and we fixed that. It was the O-ring gasket under the oil filter adapter, my bad, kinked it somehow. Started he back up and ran it for about 15 min at 2000 rpms, before she got to hot and I had to shut her down again. I had fans running in front of the radiator but that didn't keep her cooled down. A couple of problems as I see it:

1. Don't have the timing set correctly. I believe it should be about 12 or 15 degrees with the currently setup. It's a Z11 cam. The book call for that on the 425 hp. Thoughts please ????

2. The fan is to far inside the shroud. It is completely inside. I can cut the shroud down so that only about half the blade is inside. I'll work that tomorrow.

I had to make some tempurary exhaust connection so there are a couple of leaks, but that only added to the noise and excitment of hearing her run for the first time. Almost wet my pants... Moer fun than sex on Sunday !!!!

How I fixed the problems..... Called enough people until I found a 621 bell housing. One of the local rod shops had one and he let me borrow it until I can find one of my own. It has a bad spot on the bottom and no cover on the back, but for what I needed it works great. Picked up a differant starter to bolt up to the block, got an 11" clutch and flywheel, and pressto it all worked.

I'll post some pictures ASAP, but I'm still trying to get to a big local show-n-shine this weekend and alot of work still remains. Thanks for all the help....

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Congratulations Nuts, You got a whole lot of stuff done in a short period of time. Sounds like you got a good handle on the odds and ends needed to finish up. Glad she sounds good. Try 12 degrees initial and put some miles on her. Hope you make the showthis weekend. Good luck

 

[bobs409]

Congratulations Nuts! Another one LIVES! I sure remember when I was right where you are now.

Mine overheated and I had to shut mine off during the break in too. I think mine had an air bubble in the cooling system.

Incorrect timing can make the temps higher and also, a new engine is tight so that can add a little bit onto the temp gauge.


Good luck with her,


Bob