More Problems w/409 HELP !!!!!

[Mr Goodwrench]

Z-11 cam ???? if those are stock 690 heads your running that cam will coil bind the springs and cause all kinds of parts breakage!!! I know this first hand.

 

[Nuts]

Don't you love a guy who brings good news !!!!!

 

[Mr Goodwrench]

thought someone else would jump in hear????? I think I'ts been discussed before friend of mine ran that same set up about 25 years ago, broke valve springs and rockers on a daily basis, finally broke a spring and sucked the valve down the cylinder.....guess what no more 409 one head and one block went to the scrap yard.

 

[wrench]

engine specs

I researched old messages from CT and pulled this:

1965 409 Motor #3857656 truck block with 3830817 cylinder heads with a 4x2 factory. Has a custom 7qt. Steffs Oil Pan and MSD Distributor, Rebuilt water pump and 7" Harmonic Balancer and after market valve covers and custom built rear dump headers. The following work was done to the engine: Block was cleaned and acid dipped and shaked and baked and maged. Block was bored to 4.352 or +.040 and lined honed, decked .003 and new cam bearings and freeze plugs, new Ross Pistons with both valve reliefs cut in dome area, Connecting Rods recondition and ARP Rod bolts used, Hastings rings and Clevite rod and main bearings used. 409 cranshaft #3838416 used and turned to .020 mains and rods .020, melling M-55hv oil pump used and steff's oil pump pickup used. Complete Engine balance with balance sheet. New true roller timing chain, using Isky camshaft # 241233 for the Z-11 application @556 lift int and exh. and Isky lifters and Manley 5/15 .080 wall pushrods and Scorpion Roller Rockers 1.75. Cylinder heads have been resurfaced and installed 7/16 screw in rocker studs using Manley Stainless steel valves, valve seals installed. Mild Bowl work done to the heads and ports polished and exhaust ports cleaned and polished.

Should be enough detail there to discuss the valve train questions.

 

[SS425HP]

The Ross pistons should be OK. I think they have valve relief for a .650 lift cam. But, no where do I see what springs were used. I'm not sure the stock springs will work at the .556 lift. Seems to me we used a Chrysler Hemi spring on big cams back in the day. You can get retainers and locks that will give you more height to get around coil bind, also.
The 583 heads were almost identical to the 690, Bob. Only thing was more meat under the spring. You could use stronger springs on the 583. That's the way I remember it.

Fred

 

[wrench]

heads

The 583 heads were almost identical to the 690

But, nuts engine has 3830817's - how does that and Z cam play?

 

[gearhead409]

583 heads

they are also machined deeper in the spring area. bob, i have used z11 cams with 690 also, just need to be carefull and check everything. i would think with new 690 heads and new factory stock valves ( no valvejob ever been done to either) it could be close to coilbind.

 

[Mr Goodwrench]

hmmmm I was thinking it's been said here before the 583 heads had deeper spring pockets and longer valves to accommodate the z-11 cam, which is the same cam they used in the 409/425 after mid 1963????????
anyway I as I said earlier, and I'm talking about 100% stock 690's (no guides machined)

 

[Ronnie Russell]

You guys are having a ball describing 690s and 583s , but like Wrench said " Nuts is using 817s!!!!! Nuts, What kind of valve springs and set-up are you using?

 

[gearhead409]

Ronnie

the spring pocket depth on 817 and 690 are the same other than their dia. the 583 spring pockets are about .080 deeper. give or take do to how many times the heads have had a valve job.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks gearhead. So big springs on #817s with correct width pocket would be easy installation. The weaker of the 690 springs with damperers and correct retainers and keepers would seem to be a good set up for 817s with .550 lift cam. Agreed? or is there something better?

 

[gearhead409]

Ronnie

it wouldn't be my choice today as there are alot of good after market parts available today. but in the old days there wasn't much out there to work with and as bob walker said we used the z11 cam and got away with it. if i was to do it again i would be careful with stack up tolerances and go for it. but remember you are more than likly going to use old springs as i don't think new ones are available and you will be pushing them past what they were designed for and even without coil-bind the spring may still break.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Gearhead, I guess my confusion stems from Show Cars catalogue that shows 2 different 690 springs. 2 different spring ratings. I assume these are new aftermarket springs. After thinking about it, would probably want the stronger for a .550 lift cam. But I would want the weakest quality spring that would not bind, yet not cause flat cam due to too much pressure for a high milage motor. Trying to put together basic info. as I am gonna use some 817s in the future. Always have used 690s in the past and dont have experience "improving 817s" No problem with bowl blending and port matching,, but I would like to choose the best spring combo. Thanks for the input

 

[SS425HP]

Springs and retainers

I'm using an Isky 3105-D spring. It's good for a .595 lift without coil bind. To be sure, I'd call Curt Harvey. He can get you the right springs and retainers, or tell you what to use.

Fred

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks Fred, I have bought 2 Iskys from Curt in the past. Ordered springs at the same time, always with good results. Did not store part numbers (mistake) I will save the 3105-D part number and confirm with Curt when I order cam . Thanks again

 

[Mr Goodwrench]

sorry to jump ship guys :? I didnt read nuts post close enough I guess to realize he w as running 817's