Oil consumption

[Carmine]

Hi everyone. In re. to my oil consumption issue, I went to the machine shop today and spoke with the machinist. Told him I had 2700 miles on the motor and it was still using oil. He checked his records and said that the valve guides were in proper tolerances therefore not replaced. He doesn't recall what type of valve stem seal was used. We spoke for a while and I felt that the best course of action would be to remove the heads and take them there for inspection. He agreed so within the few weeks, I will remove and take the heads there. I'm almost convinced that this problem is due to valve guides and/or valve stem seals, which brings me to my next question. What does everyone use for valve stem seals?? Do you use the rubber "O" rings or something called an "umbrella"? Can both be used at the same time?? Thanks and I will keep everyone updated, Carmine.

BTW, he said that the type piston rings he used should have seated a while ago. I don't recall the name.

 

[409envy]

On my freshly built 583's The guides were perfect. I had the machine shop cut down the guide for umbrella type seals. In my opinion they are much more effective at oil control than the little o-ring. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Don Jacks]

Machine the top of the guide for the "Perfect Circle" style valve seals.These will seal the guides much better than the factory "O" ring seals.

 

[blkblk63ss]

How much oil does it use ???

 

[Carmine]

How much oil does it use ???

I will run that idea about machining the guides by the machinist. I like that approach with the using the umbrella seals a lot. Thanks.

I wish I had a better answer re. how much oil it uses. I would say possibly 2 quarts plus every 1000 miles. It hasn't gotten a whole lot better with driving it. Previously, I've taken some long rides and checked the stick before leaving. I even took a pic with my phone for a record. When I get back, I let it set overnight and checked the oil level in the morning. It's obviously down from the day before. Maybe a little less then 1/8" or so. You can certainly notice it. Other then that, the engine runs fine. I really hate to take this motor apart. It was set up on the dyno and runs so good except for the oil issue. This issue isn't acceptable to me so I have to figure out what is wrong with it. Other then the valve stem seals or valve guides, I don't know what else it could be. When I had this motor rebuilt in April 2015, I told the machinist to do what was needed regardless of the cost. I wanted it correct. So, him knowing that, I'm sure he would have replaced the valve guides if questionable. I'm leaning heavily towards the valve stem seals. For some reason, there is something wrong there. I really think too much oil is travelling down the valve shaft, into the combustion chamber, burns and comes out the tailpipes as a light blue smoke. That's just my thinking. If nothing else, I will be eliminating that as a cause, Carmine.

 

[MRHP]

I can't help thinking it is either intake manifold gasket sucking oil from the lifter valley, or broken rings. Two plus quarts in 1000 miles is a lot of oil. I hope I am wrong on the ring issue.

 

[Ishiftem]

^^yep^^. Look for an oil residue in the intake ports. If it's there, the intake gasket or pcv is the issue. If no residue but, there is oil burnt on the back of the intake valve, then it's guides and/or seals.

 

[63 dream'n]

I can't help thinking it is either intake manifold gasket sucking oil from the lifter valley, or broken rings. Two plus quarts in 1000 miles is a lot of oil. I hope I am wrong on the ring issue.

^^yep^^. Look for an oil residue in the intake ports. If it's there, the intake gasket or pcv is the issue. If no residue but, there is oil burnt on the back of the intake valve, then it's guides and/or seals.

Watched a restoration show the other night.......engine had great performance, no leeks.......using volumes of oil......wether it was heads resurfaced,block decked, issues was a poorly fitted intake manifold........like stated above from the "gurus".......oil residue in the intake ports

 

[1958 delivery]

I always cringe when someone says "used guides checked out"

 

[Iowa 409 Guy]

I hate to say it, but rings are not seated or broken.

 

[61BUBBLE348]

I know this doesn't help you Carmine, but my 348 that I did 5 1/2 years ago has about 20,000 miles on it and burns no oil.
For valve guides to use that much they would have to be really bad.

 

[303Radar]

Have you tried a compression check? If a ring was bad, this might show something.

 

[Carmine]

I haven't done a compression test. Reason being, someone mentioned that a compression test wouldn't tell me much about a bad oil ring, so I didn't try it. But, I can.

As outlined in another thread, I checked the lifter valley/intake for a vacuum leak and everything tested ok. I didn't know about checking the intake ports on the manifold for signs of oil residue, so that will be one of the first things I do when I remove the manifold. I admittedly am a novice at certain things and I can't help but think if it was a broken oil ring(s), there would be residue on the spark plugs, which are firing well. Whatever is wrong, is not unique to just one side. Both tailpipes did their share of emitting light blue smoke. Therefore, wouldn't some oil rings have to be broken on both sides?? I think that would be possible but not probable. I don't want to get fixated on any one cause, but I still think it's the valve stem seals. Something is allowing oil to go into the combustion chamber and out the tailpipe. I think about this issue all the time but I am limited because I don't know much about the inner workings of an engine. But, I am learning.
Dumb question, but how would I know I have broken oil rings?? Would pieces be laying in the cylinder?? Would the cylinder walls be scratched?? The heads, if I get that far, will go to the machine shop. If I were to remove a few valves and springs before taking them in, I should be able to tell what valve stem seals were used and would I also be able to tell about the valve guides; worn or not?? If worn, would the valve stem be sloppy in them. Could this be seen without being measured?? Thanks everyone, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

Ever hear of a "positive type valve guide seal"?? Thanks.

 

[DonSSDD]

Where smoke is equal on both sides, and you have no crossover in your exhaust, you are right, it would have to be something bad on both sides, like valve seals. Or the intake not sealed. Or re than one broken ring (which seems unlikely but not impossible).

Do the easy stuff first, remove the intake and post pics of what you find. Wouldn't hurt to post pics of the bottom of your intake, the lifter valley, as well as the surfaces that meet on the block and the intake, before you clean it? Just pull the intake and post pics. There are a lot of smart people here, I'm not one of them, but chances are if its something to do with the intake, someone will see something.

After doing that, you'll get suggestions on where to go next.

 

[63impalass409]

When I put my last 409 together I used the umbrella type seals from show cars automotive that they say replace the oring and they fit under stock springs and I have never had have had a puff of smoke since I put it together 4 years ago.

 

[blkblk63ss]

i think we have might have discussed this before , but what or how is your pcv set up???????? What intake are you using ,do it have a baffle under it?????

 

[Carmine]

Where smoke is equal on both sides, and you have no crossover in your exhaust, you are right, it would have to be something bad on both sides, like valve seals. Or the intake not sealed. Or re than one broken ring (which seems unlikely but not impossible).

Do the easy stuff first, remove the intake and post pics of what you find. Wouldn't hurt to post pics of the bottom of your intake, the lifter valley, as well as the surfaces that meet on the block and the intake, before you clean it? Just pull the intake and post pics. There are a lot of smart people here, I'm not one of them, but chances are if its something to do with the intake, someone will see something.

After doing that, you'll get suggestions on where to go next.

Good approach. That's what I will do.

Don, I replaced the road draft tube with a setup from ShowCars. It is connected to the rear of the carb and has a pcv valve in the line. The other end goes to a grommet I think in the block or intake. I really don't remember but could take a look. I followed the instructions when I installed it. The intake is cast iron from a '65 409 and does have something riveted underneath. Would that be the baffle?? From an entirely different posting, a thread suggested as to how to check the pcv setup. I followed what was said and don't believe there were any problems with it, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

When I put my last 409 together I used the umbrella type seals from show cars automotive that they say replace the oring and they fit under stock springs and I have never had have had a puff of smoke since I put it together 4 years ago.

I'm happy for you but envious at the same time. There is no doubt that I will get to the bottom of this. It saddens and angers me that I might have to take the top part of the engine apart. I hate doing the same thing twice. But, if that's what it takes, then so be it. Not only for my peace of mind, but what if some day I wanted to sell the car. I would tell them about the oil usage. Certainly not a selling point, especially when I knew all the details, Carmine.

 

[skipxt4]

Many of us, have purchased 409 parts, from different places. Engine block, from this guy. Cylinder heads, from another guy. We as car guys, are always looking for Great deals on 348-409 parts. The thing is, we Don't know anything about these engine blocks or cylinder heads. Sometimes, the main issue is whether they are cracked or not. One thing, that most people overlook is, how many times, has the block been shaved, or the heads? Does the Intake Manifold sit correctly on the heads, and block? If not, that would be a reason, to suck oil out of the lifter gallery. I personally think a PCV on these engines, causes more problems than they're worth. Just my .02