oil4kids
Well Known Member
This part you only hear about
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL...ewItemQQcategoryZ34198QQitemZ4632470483QQrdZ1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL...ewItemQQcategoryZ34198QQitemZ4632470483QQrdZ1
z11 single intake
- Thread starter oil4kids
- Start date
Thanks Mark, I enjoyed that. I have never seen one. Guess I could go see it in person, if Im ever in K.C. 
Edlebrock take notice.
A nice aluminum intake would sell.
Mike
A nice aluminum intake would sell.
Mike
M
MK IISS
Guest
The is no such thing as a "RPO Z11 Single Four Aluminum Intake Manifold". Key words: "RPO" (Regular Production Option)
Seller's conflicting statements: : "NASCAR issue parts."......."Z11 cars were factory racers with aluminum front body panels."
NASCAR did not allow aluminum body panels.
Seller's conflicting statements: : "NASCAR issue parts."......."Z11 cars were factory racers with aluminum front body panels."
NASCAR did not allow aluminum body panels.
I visited Phil and Brad on friday and Phil was VERY excited about that part! It hadn't arrived yet when I was there. I think Phil said it had a May 1962 casting date. Can't remember for sure but it was fairly early.
Ross
Ross
oil4kids
Well Known Member
Smokey Yunick and a few Nascar guys would have know about it- the problem is when they pass so does a part of documentable history
if that part has a may 1962 design then the z11 was in the engineering stages in 1960/61 and maybe was the original design for the 409
i would think the gm engineers liked the pontiac 421 style nascar design which has simular features to the high port z11
the 409 heads might have been throttled back to the 348 head design for production cars
if that part has a may 1962 design then the z11 was in the engineering stages in 1960/61 and maybe was the original design for the 409
i would think the gm engineers liked the pontiac 421 style nascar design which has simular features to the high port z11
the 409 heads might have been throttled back to the 348 head design for production cars
M
MK IISS
Guest
I always thought Chevrolet orginally planned to use the "Z11" style head/intakes on the regular production 409s starting with the '63 model year but for some reason it didn't happen. If the "Z11" heads/intakes were intended to be race only parts I believe they wouldn't have had the heat riser passage to the carb.
It would be interesting to know if the Chevy "factory" NASCAR teams (Rex White and Ned Jarrett) used the "Z11" type head/intake late in the 1962 NASCAR season. I was told they did by a factory engineer who used to stop and talk to my Uncle who was a dealer. This engineer also said the 427 crank was used in the last '62 NASCAR race at Atlanta which was held Oct. 28th. The engineers who designed and developed the Mk II Mystery engine claim they didn't get the word about changing the Mk II from 409 cubic inches to 427 until October so it doesn't seem possible there was enough time for the 427 crank to be developed and used in the Atlanta race. Rex White, in his recent book GOLD THUNDER, which is about his NASCAR career, makes no mention of the use of the "Z11" heads or 427 crank so it may not be true.
I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful with any 409 engine info. He absolutely hated the 409 engine.
It would be interesting to know if the Chevy "factory" NASCAR teams (Rex White and Ned Jarrett) used the "Z11" type head/intake late in the 1962 NASCAR season. I was told they did by a factory engineer who used to stop and talk to my Uncle who was a dealer. This engineer also said the 427 crank was used in the last '62 NASCAR race at Atlanta which was held Oct. 28th. The engineers who designed and developed the Mk II Mystery engine claim they didn't get the word about changing the Mk II from 409 cubic inches to 427 until October so it doesn't seem possible there was enough time for the 427 crank to be developed and used in the Atlanta race. Rex White, in his recent book GOLD THUNDER, which is about his NASCAR career, makes no mention of the use of the "Z11" heads or 427 crank so it may not be true.
I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful with any 409 engine info. He absolutely hated the 409 engine.
oil4kids
Well Known Member
MK IISS said:
If the "Z11" heads/intakes were intended to be race only parts I believe they wouldn't have had the heat riser passage to the carb.
this is a very very good point
tisk tisk, Richard,
just because you dont like something, does not mean you don't know everything about it-
I think Smokey knew every dam thing about early chevies and probably fixed more 348s and 409s at his shop then most
Since we all know Smoke had a few mystery motors, then we know he had worked on the 90 degree 409 block
He was also well versed in Pontiac heads
I do hope to speak with Ned one day-
oil4kids
Well Known Member
this is from the nascar web site
Evolution of a stock car: Part III
February 6, 2002
11:11 PM EST (0411 GMT)
While a "superspeedway boom" occurred from 1959 to the early 1960s, with no less than four major speedways being built in Daytona Beach, Fla.; Hanford, Calif.; Concord, N.C.; and Hampton, Ga.; the automobile manufacturers -- who had signed an agreement that "got them out" of racing in 1957, gradually realized that to sell new cars, it certainly helped to win races.
Despite accruing the knowledge of what it took to win Grand National races, the period was interesting in that both engine and body configurations went through several "generations" and radical changes as race cars, by and large, matched what was pushed in the showrooms by the manufacturers.
One of the most interesting occurrences in 1959 came when the Ford Motor Company abandoned its "top of the line" Galaxy model to use its Thunderbird as the race car of choice. The Galaxy was a fairly bulky car that year, so Holman & Moody, Ford's acknowledged racing arm, built a "fleet" of T-Birds to compete in Grand National racing, the forerunner of the Winston Cup Series.
The T-Bird was lower and sleeker than the Galaxy but it still fell within the dimensional parameters set in the NASCAR rules...even though the car had been created as a "sports car" that was designed to compete with Chevrolet's Corvette.
Although the T-Bird continued to compete, Ford returned to its "premier" Galaxy Starliner model in 1960.
Conventional, full frame cars were still the norm as purpose-built tube frame race cars were still out on the Grand National horizon. Stories of race teams -- as Ray Fox's did in 1960 to win the Daytona 500 -- picking up cars from showrooms only days before races and converting them to race cars were commonplace.
In the General Motors' camp, teams had figured out the coil spring rear suspension setup that was introduced in 1958 and virtually everyone was running the 1959 Chevrolet on the big tracks, where it was particularly effective. This "light bulb" effect certainly led some to believe that the racers must have gotten some suspension geometry help from Detroit, but the manufacturers were still laying pretty low due to the Automobile Manufacturers Association (AMA) agreement that had disassociated them from the sport.
Through this period, of course, innovation often was the answer to necessity, and with many NASCAR races still conducted on dirt tracks and with pavement tracks sometimes coming apart, screens, grillwork and other protective devices were often de rigeur.
The early days found race teams not necessarily locked-into a particular manufacturer's model or even make. They were able to do some amazing things with cars that looked particularly unwieldy to the naked eye: Witness the monstrous Oldsmobile with which Lee Petty won the inaugural Daytona 500, which was a somewhat tank-like ride. Petty jumped back and forth between Chrysler and Oldsmobile in that time, depending on which car was more suited to the task at hand.
As the "superspeedway boom" era continued, manufacturers began to pay more attention to aerodynamics. The 1963 Ford Fastback Galaxy was used in the manufacturer's literature and was advertised as a race car. The 1960-61 Starliner had what was actually an effectively aerodynamic roofline. In fact, with the 1962 car a pretty boxy proposition, Fred Lorenzen ran a 1962 Galaxy with a 1961 Ford roof in a one-shot deal for the Atlanta 500 -- and won the race in the car's only appearance.
General Motors had a grip on the Grand National championship in the early 1960s, with Rex White and Ned Jarrett winning titles in 1960-1961 in Chevrolets and Joe Weatherly copping the titles in 1962-1963 -- primarily in Pontiacs. In the 1961-1962 season Pontiac won more races than any manufacturer in the history of the Grand National Division in consecutive years: 52.
Mercury added a twist to the manufacturers' battle when it entered racing in a bigger way in 1963 with its Marauder model. Bill Stroppe, the West Coast's answer to Holman & Moody, handled the Mercury competition program with a similar assembly line approach. Unknown newcomer Billy Wade swept four straight races in 1964 driving a Mercury.
Mercury prompted the switch of legendary NASCAR car owner Bud Moore to the Ford Motor Co. camp when Moore -- in the absence of significant support from General Motors -- switched from Pontiac to Mercury. Weatherly took the 1963 championship but had to pick-up rides for most of the year. Ford scored another coup when it grabbed Fireball Roberts, who won his first race for Ford in 1963 at Bristol (Tenn.) Motor Speedway. The swapping of personnel is one part of stock car evolution that has been around since the beginning.
Shock development, which today is acknowledged as critical to race car performance, also experienced more emphasis in the early 1960s. The popular "Air Lift" shocks were being phased out and Monroe and Gabriel became heavily involved in shock development for racing applications.
Tire development also continued. Firestone was the dominant tire company, but Goodyear was involved to a limited degree. Increasing speeds made these developments important.
The end of this period also brought an end to one unique item. Through the early 1960s, Lorenzen still used a trap door in the driver's compartment to check tire wear. By 1965, however, nobody used the device that was once a favorite of dirt track competitors.
Another significant advance during this period occurred as roll cage structures began to become a more integral part of the car and as such, were used to stiffen the chassis and improve a car's handling as well as serving as vital protection.
A variety of triangulated bars, from front to back, across the mid-section of the car and also in the doors were as much to stiffen and strengthen the cars as they were to serve as protection. There was a tremendous amount of flex inherent in the "x-frame" cars used in the 1958-60 period. Smokey Yunick was one of the first car builders to use the roll cage as an integral part of the car's chassis.
Ford had unleashed the flow of relatively open factory support when it repudiated the AMA agreement in 1962. While General Motors remained mostly silent, within a few weeks Chrysler announced it would develop "high performance" parts for stock car racing.
Another big issue of this period was in the engine compartment.
Noted mechanic Fox was the mastermind behind Chevrolet's so-called "mystery engine," a 427-cubic inch "high lift" high performance piece that would replace the 409-cubic inch engine that was often referred to as a "boat anchor" because of its weight. Yunick, the other half of the legendary mechanical pair that lived in Daytona Beach, was also involved in the development of that engine.
While much of the mystique of this engine was as much hype as it was fact, at the time Ford claimed it spent $1 million chasing the development curve on Chevy's powerplant. Junior Johnson, driving Fox's 1963 Chevrolet, sat on a lot of front rows with the combination, but as had often been the case with other potent mixes, in most cases the car was either a top-5 finisher or it broke.
Among the team's accomplishments in 1963 was sweeping the front row for the Firecracker 400 at Daytona International Speedway, with Johnson and G.C. Spencer doing the honors.
The "engine wars" reached a peak when in 1964 Richard Petty brought a Plymouth hemispherical combustion chamber engine, or "hemi," and cleaned house at Daytona, including winning the first of seven Daytona 500s. The Plymouth and Dodge body styles had been streamlined somewhat first. The hemis: Plymouth's "Super-Commando" and Dodge's "Hemi-Charger" now had an appropriate platform in which to sit.
The engine had first been produced in the early 1950s, but had been shelved with the AMA ban in 1956. Chrysler engineers also came up with a double rocker arm system used in conjunction with the hemi heads. This combination, which created a free-breathing combustion chamber, produced a good bit of top end horsepower, particularly on high-speed facilities.
Ford came back with its "tunnel port" 427-cubic inch engine. And Ford had a very well handling race car. Following the Daytona 500, the fourth point race of the season, Ford won 11 out of the next 15 races -- 13 of which were on short tracks. Plymouth and Dodge won two races apiece in that stretch.
As was the case in many other aspects of racing, NASCAR kept a close eye on these developments and took action, as it became necessary. The repercussions from that highlighted the next period in the evolution of a stock car.
Evolution of a stock car: Part III
February 6, 2002
11:11 PM EST (0411 GMT)
While a "superspeedway boom" occurred from 1959 to the early 1960s, with no less than four major speedways being built in Daytona Beach, Fla.; Hanford, Calif.; Concord, N.C.; and Hampton, Ga.; the automobile manufacturers -- who had signed an agreement that "got them out" of racing in 1957, gradually realized that to sell new cars, it certainly helped to win races.
Despite accruing the knowledge of what it took to win Grand National races, the period was interesting in that both engine and body configurations went through several "generations" and radical changes as race cars, by and large, matched what was pushed in the showrooms by the manufacturers.
One of the most interesting occurrences in 1959 came when the Ford Motor Company abandoned its "top of the line" Galaxy model to use its Thunderbird as the race car of choice. The Galaxy was a fairly bulky car that year, so Holman & Moody, Ford's acknowledged racing arm, built a "fleet" of T-Birds to compete in Grand National racing, the forerunner of the Winston Cup Series.
The T-Bird was lower and sleeker than the Galaxy but it still fell within the dimensional parameters set in the NASCAR rules...even though the car had been created as a "sports car" that was designed to compete with Chevrolet's Corvette.
Although the T-Bird continued to compete, Ford returned to its "premier" Galaxy Starliner model in 1960.
Conventional, full frame cars were still the norm as purpose-built tube frame race cars were still out on the Grand National horizon. Stories of race teams -- as Ray Fox's did in 1960 to win the Daytona 500 -- picking up cars from showrooms only days before races and converting them to race cars were commonplace.
In the General Motors' camp, teams had figured out the coil spring rear suspension setup that was introduced in 1958 and virtually everyone was running the 1959 Chevrolet on the big tracks, where it was particularly effective. This "light bulb" effect certainly led some to believe that the racers must have gotten some suspension geometry help from Detroit, but the manufacturers were still laying pretty low due to the Automobile Manufacturers Association (AMA) agreement that had disassociated them from the sport.
Through this period, of course, innovation often was the answer to necessity, and with many NASCAR races still conducted on dirt tracks and with pavement tracks sometimes coming apart, screens, grillwork and other protective devices were often de rigeur.
The early days found race teams not necessarily locked-into a particular manufacturer's model or even make. They were able to do some amazing things with cars that looked particularly unwieldy to the naked eye: Witness the monstrous Oldsmobile with which Lee Petty won the inaugural Daytona 500, which was a somewhat tank-like ride. Petty jumped back and forth between Chrysler and Oldsmobile in that time, depending on which car was more suited to the task at hand.
As the "superspeedway boom" era continued, manufacturers began to pay more attention to aerodynamics. The 1963 Ford Fastback Galaxy was used in the manufacturer's literature and was advertised as a race car. The 1960-61 Starliner had what was actually an effectively aerodynamic roofline. In fact, with the 1962 car a pretty boxy proposition, Fred Lorenzen ran a 1962 Galaxy with a 1961 Ford roof in a one-shot deal for the Atlanta 500 -- and won the race in the car's only appearance.
General Motors had a grip on the Grand National championship in the early 1960s, with Rex White and Ned Jarrett winning titles in 1960-1961 in Chevrolets and Joe Weatherly copping the titles in 1962-1963 -- primarily in Pontiacs. In the 1961-1962 season Pontiac won more races than any manufacturer in the history of the Grand National Division in consecutive years: 52.
Mercury added a twist to the manufacturers' battle when it entered racing in a bigger way in 1963 with its Marauder model. Bill Stroppe, the West Coast's answer to Holman & Moody, handled the Mercury competition program with a similar assembly line approach. Unknown newcomer Billy Wade swept four straight races in 1964 driving a Mercury.
Mercury prompted the switch of legendary NASCAR car owner Bud Moore to the Ford Motor Co. camp when Moore -- in the absence of significant support from General Motors -- switched from Pontiac to Mercury. Weatherly took the 1963 championship but had to pick-up rides for most of the year. Ford scored another coup when it grabbed Fireball Roberts, who won his first race for Ford in 1963 at Bristol (Tenn.) Motor Speedway. The swapping of personnel is one part of stock car evolution that has been around since the beginning.
Shock development, which today is acknowledged as critical to race car performance, also experienced more emphasis in the early 1960s. The popular "Air Lift" shocks were being phased out and Monroe and Gabriel became heavily involved in shock development for racing applications.
Tire development also continued. Firestone was the dominant tire company, but Goodyear was involved to a limited degree. Increasing speeds made these developments important.
The end of this period also brought an end to one unique item. Through the early 1960s, Lorenzen still used a trap door in the driver's compartment to check tire wear. By 1965, however, nobody used the device that was once a favorite of dirt track competitors.
Another significant advance during this period occurred as roll cage structures began to become a more integral part of the car and as such, were used to stiffen the chassis and improve a car's handling as well as serving as vital protection.
A variety of triangulated bars, from front to back, across the mid-section of the car and also in the doors were as much to stiffen and strengthen the cars as they were to serve as protection. There was a tremendous amount of flex inherent in the "x-frame" cars used in the 1958-60 period. Smokey Yunick was one of the first car builders to use the roll cage as an integral part of the car's chassis.
Ford had unleashed the flow of relatively open factory support when it repudiated the AMA agreement in 1962. While General Motors remained mostly silent, within a few weeks Chrysler announced it would develop "high performance" parts for stock car racing.
Another big issue of this period was in the engine compartment.
Noted mechanic Fox was the mastermind behind Chevrolet's so-called "mystery engine," a 427-cubic inch "high lift" high performance piece that would replace the 409-cubic inch engine that was often referred to as a "boat anchor" because of its weight. Yunick, the other half of the legendary mechanical pair that lived in Daytona Beach, was also involved in the development of that engine.
While much of the mystique of this engine was as much hype as it was fact, at the time Ford claimed it spent $1 million chasing the development curve on Chevy's powerplant. Junior Johnson, driving Fox's 1963 Chevrolet, sat on a lot of front rows with the combination, but as had often been the case with other potent mixes, in most cases the car was either a top-5 finisher or it broke.
Among the team's accomplishments in 1963 was sweeping the front row for the Firecracker 400 at Daytona International Speedway, with Johnson and G.C. Spencer doing the honors.
The "engine wars" reached a peak when in 1964 Richard Petty brought a Plymouth hemispherical combustion chamber engine, or "hemi," and cleaned house at Daytona, including winning the first of seven Daytona 500s. The Plymouth and Dodge body styles had been streamlined somewhat first. The hemis: Plymouth's "Super-Commando" and Dodge's "Hemi-Charger" now had an appropriate platform in which to sit.
The engine had first been produced in the early 1950s, but had been shelved with the AMA ban in 1956. Chrysler engineers also came up with a double rocker arm system used in conjunction with the hemi heads. This combination, which created a free-breathing combustion chamber, produced a good bit of top end horsepower, particularly on high-speed facilities.
Ford came back with its "tunnel port" 427-cubic inch engine. And Ford had a very well handling race car. Following the Daytona 500, the fourth point race of the season, Ford won 11 out of the next 15 races -- 13 of which were on short tracks. Plymouth and Dodge won two races apiece in that stretch.
As was the case in many other aspects of racing, NASCAR kept a close eye on these developments and took action, as it became necessary. The repercussions from that highlighted the next period in the evolution of a stock car.
M
MK IISS
Guest
Mark: I believe Rex White, who is still alive of course, would be the best one to talk to. He was not only a race car driver...he worked on and actually built some of his cars along with Louis Clements. I could be mistaken but I think Ned Jarrett was more of a driver (one of the best...ever) than a mechanic. He may not know if the '62 409s he drove had the "Z11" parts.
I didn't say Smokey didn't know anything about the 409 engine....didn't even imply it. What I said was: "I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful...." I was talkin' about Rex White's and Ned Jarrett's '62 409 NASCAR engines and the latest parts they were using. I also said Smokey hated the 409....which he did. He was quite vocal about it. As far as I know all he did was "bad-mouth" the 409 engine. I still believe he would not have been the best person to talk to about what crankshaft Rex White used in his 409 for the last race of the '62 season or any other of the latest parts they were using. How would Smokey know? He didn't build the 1962 Chevrolet NASCAR engines for the "factory" cars. He had a contract with Pontiac. Race teams back then were very secretive...just as they are today.
I didn't say Smokey didn't know anything about the 409 engine....didn't even imply it. What I said was: "I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful...." I was talkin' about Rex White's and Ned Jarrett's '62 409 NASCAR engines and the latest parts they were using. I also said Smokey hated the 409....which he did. He was quite vocal about it. As far as I know all he did was "bad-mouth" the 409 engine. I still believe he would not have been the best person to talk to about what crankshaft Rex White used in his 409 for the last race of the '62 season or any other of the latest parts they were using. How would Smokey know? He didn't build the 1962 Chevrolet NASCAR engines for the "factory" cars. He had a contract with Pontiac. Race teams back then were very secretive...just as they are today.
M
MK IISS
Guest
Junior Johnson will be 75 years old in June.
Dan, I saw that show. It made me cringe when Junior said that. But what are you gonna do? Its Junior Johnson. Sure would be interesting to talk to him about the W-head engines. No doubt, he was not happy with the w-head, but it did have some success.
M
MK IISS
Guest
Ws in NASCAR
A '59 Impala 348/305 sat on the pole for the first Daytona 500 at the new speedway.
Junior Johnson won the 1960 Daytona 500 with his Ray Fox '59 Biscayne 348/320.
Rex White won the 1960 NASCAR Championship with his BelAir Sport Coupes with the 348/320.
Ned Jarrett won the 1961 NASCAR Championship with his 1961 BelAir Sport Coupes with the 409/360.
A '59 Impala 348/305 sat on the pole for the first Daytona 500 at the new speedway.
Junior Johnson won the 1960 Daytona 500 with his Ray Fox '59 Biscayne 348/320.
Rex White won the 1960 NASCAR Championship with his BelAir Sport Coupes with the 348/320.
Ned Jarrett won the 1961 NASCAR Championship with his 1961 BelAir Sport Coupes with the 409/360.
"SPEED had a show about Junior Johnson where he said a race he one in 1960 with his 1959 chevy was powered by a 409 truck engine(HIS WORDS).Is that possible or is his memory bad."
__________________
I don't think the younger guys understand that years ago, truck parts were thought of as being heavy duty parts. Back then, to say to the 348 or the 409 was a truck engine meant it was a heavy duty engine. Which actually meant it was better which is totaly different from what people think this mean's today. As for Jr.'s statement about winning the 1960 race in a 409, his memory ain't bad, it was probably more cubic inches than that!!!!! It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to fool a P&G gauge and that's what they used had back then. That '66 banana boat Ford wasn't his first attempt at bending the rules.
__________________
I don't think the younger guys understand that years ago, truck parts were thought of as being heavy duty parts. Back then, to say to the 348 or the 409 was a truck engine meant it was a heavy duty engine. Which actually meant it was better which is totaly different from what people think this mean's today. As for Jr.'s statement about winning the 1960 race in a 409, his memory ain't bad, it was probably more cubic inches than that!!!!! It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to fool a P&G gauge and that's what they used had back then. That '66 banana boat Ford wasn't his first attempt at bending the rules.
Junior the innovator
Didn't Junior once have a car with about 30 feet of huge fuel line wound through the frame? Seems like it held another 5 gallons or something like that. That was the good old days of NASCAR ingenuity. Today they call it cheating. Back then, it was just getting a leg up on the competition!!!!!!!!!!!
Didn't Junior once have a car with about 30 feet of huge fuel line wound through the frame? Seems like it held another 5 gallons or something like that. That was the good old days of NASCAR ingenuity. Today they call it cheating. Back then, it was just getting a leg up on the competition!!!!!!!!!!!
M
MK IISS
Guest
"It ain't cheatin' unless ya get caught."
oil4kids
Well Known Member
Now where did i hear a story during the early days of racing about a Ford team qualifying with there 75 pound radio which was convently switched after tech inspection.\
Richard, thanks for the 348/409 History Nascar wins-
It would be nice to have a web page dedicated to national wins with the W Motor, I know Dick Harrell had a long list of wins with this motor
attached Smokeys #13 1966 Chevelle, supossed to have a "special Big Block"
Richard, thanks for the 348/409 History Nascar wins-
It would be nice to have a web page dedicated to national wins with the W Motor, I know Dick Harrell had a long list of wins with this motor
attached Smokeys #13 1966 Chevelle, supossed to have a "special Big Block"
