409 in a 1935 chevy

[oldskydog]

I don't think the head gasket even touches the oil drainback holes.
I don't think the hole you see from above goes all the way to the deck. I think it only goes part way, then gets intersected by another hole that goes into the lifter valley. The result is a passage that looks something like this... \__
If the two holes don't quite line up, that would lead to a problem and of course sludge could settle into the passage over time and cause a restriction.

Yeah, I just was looking at that on one of my heads and it definitely can't be the gasket.....must be sludged.
I never could understand how that drain even works with the two passages intersecting at nearly 90 degrees. Looks like it defies gravity, too......like it flows uphill.

 

[jwhotrod]

Well, tomorrow we are tearing down to find out what is going exactly. Don't think it is sludge the motor is 6 months from last rebuild, but I will not at this point discount anything. If that gasket does not surround the return hole what seals it to the block? As I said to Ken at Borowski Racing they could have had a punch mistrike in in the prog die making these gaskets. But we will find and correct it. This engine is garage art at this point and I am not ready to accept that. I will let you know, thanks for your help!!!!
Big Jim

 

[Ronnie Russell]

I agree with Cecil. I have spent lots of time studying those head drain back holes and they deny logic. The outlet is actually above the inlet or it is an optical illusion. Jim, I'm certainly looking forward to your finding. 7 qts in the upper end is quite a mystery.

 

[oldskydog]

I wonder if there would be enough pressure differential between the valve covered area and the lifter valley to help pull the oil?
Seems that all that valve action in a confined space creates some pressure.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

I don't know why it works, but it does. I gave up on trying to figure it out.

 

[CATS 09]

As Ronnie said, definitely pluggage in those oil returns, either from the cam failure or during earlier machine work, and not getting blown out at machine shop. Try using a pipe cleaner folded over (acts like a scoop) in those drains. Likely you will be able to pull up something lodged there. Then a complete tear down for inspection, cleaning, incld'g oil pump, and any repairs.
Be prepared with a stern stance in getting the machine shop to cover all of the above. And they should.
I have seen this. Those head oil return drains is a bazaar design.
Models suggestion for a valley drain hole to the timing gear area is good insurance as well. Good luck Jim

 

[jwhotrod]

Well I understand better now what everybody was talking about the drain holes not involving the gasket, at least not directly since the holes exit in the corners of the head in the valley not the head deck. There seems to not be any "junk" in the holes what I thought were blocked, what I felt was the right hand turn described above. What we do see is some tapering or reduction of the drilled hole so that there does not seem to be a complete intersection. Also we are questioning the size of the lube holes in the ends of the push rods. Gauging with drill bits I believe the end holes in the pushrods to be .090dia are we pushing too much oil thru the pushrods to the roller rockers thus causing too much oil retention? We are thinking that if we grind back the shelf that the drilled hole is in the valley surface to lessen the path length from the turn in the head to where the oil falls into the valley it should help too. pictures to follow soon.

Big jim

 

[jwhotrod]

here is the oil return hole as we see it, I am thinking we remove the material below the hole and trim back the headgasket to match?

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Jim, I just measured 409- 3/8 pushrod holes at .095.... Not your problem. Use air pressure with blowgun in the head drain back hole, but that's not your problem either. The head design is not your problem. No reason to modify. That's why I studied them a few years ago. I wanted to see if I could improve them. To keep 7 qts. of oil upstairs,,,, well, there is a major problem. There is so much drain back area between the lifters that I can't imagine what is holding the oil up top. But, I will continue to think about it. There has to be a simple solution. Sorry, keep looking.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Jim, the oil drain back hole cannot be restricted by the head gasket. It does divert it but not restrict it.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

And , no, the head in the pic; is NOT for sale. I use it for ballast on my cherry-picker base. Couldn't do without it.

 

[jwhotrod]

It would appear that removing that 1/2" of material below the hole and cutting back the gasket in that area would reduce the "retention path" considerably. Also just fishing is there any particular orientation of the distributor adapter sleeve? there are 3 holes in a line up the sidewall of the sleeve, do they need to be oriented in some particular position? As I said I'm fishing because it just does not make any sense. If I understand the flow pattern, the pump picks the oil up out of the pan goes thru the oil filter and up into the engine. So, I have to believe the front end of the system is not the problem. It is a M55a high pressure std volume pump feeding a remote oil filter thru 1/2" hoses. If there was a restriction here it would be starving the motor not having it not drain back fast enough in operation. The only place with enough volume to hold 7 quarts of oil is the valve covers. There is no "floor" in the cam valley so it cannot store it there. So, anyway while we have the heads off we are modifying that area, it cannot hurt and only help as far as I can see.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Jim, A picture of a sleeve I used in the past. Don't think that is your problem. The way I see it is that the only difference between your engine and most 409s is the remote oil filter system. The M55A is a good pump. I'm afraid the engine builder will have to diagnose it. I'm lost.

 

[chevymusclecars]

If the valve covers were full of oil I would think the guides would have oil running down the valve stem and smoke like crazy? I am running the M55HV as I'm sure other are and have no problem with oil pressure.

Bill

 

[Clyde Waldo]

And , no, the head in the pic; is NOT for sale. I use it for ballast on my cherry-picker base. Couldn't do without it.

Ronnie, Hope you don't mind me showing a picture of all the ballast on the cherry-picker!!!

 

[jwhotrod]

that is the show cars sleeve I have in my engine, like I said I'm fishing, there are brand new Teflon seals on the valve stems so they may just not be leaking oil past. As I said I don't know where else you can hold that volume of oil, but I pull the dipstick out right after shut off and there is NO oil on the stick, and it has been modified to touch the bottom of the pan, because I could not believe it myself when the stock stick showed no oil and I figured at that time it was only about 2-1/2 quarts into the oil. So I had another stick here and added enough on to reach the floor of the pan. Then wait 10 minutes and the level is right back up on full where it should be. So, the windage tray in the pan is flat except for stiffening ribs its not holding oil, I keep on thinking if I talk about this enough, maybe someone has had a similar problem and will have a revelation or something. We keep thinking we are so Damn close to getting this behind us, but something keeps creeping into the thing and I am very discouraged.

 

[oldskydog]

Another thought.
What size is your pickup tube? Cavitation can cause foaming, which is in effect, atomization of the oil. If it's atomized, it has to collect and return to liquid before it can drain back.
Most pickups were 5/8 and were increased to 3/4 to help prevent cavitation.

On second thought, the filter should act as an air/oil separator

NEVERRRRMIND

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Bill has a good point. I did experience a clogged drain hole on the passenger side head one time. The oil over ran the spring height #6 and #8. Smoked like crazy. But those particular heads did not have Teflon seals. . Air pressure dislodged the restriction and all was good. Never did know what the restriction was. I still have to believe Jim's problem has something to do with the remote filter system. With 7 qts up top , I would be very concerned with engine bearing damage. Jim, are you going to pull engine?

 

[61BUBBLE348]

Just throwing a dumb idea out there.

Have you pulled the rocker/valve covers off to see what is actually happening at the top end?????

 

[models916]

Try a SBC primer in your sleeve. See how much oil comes up and out the sleeve. I ditched mine because of all the oil coming into the galley from the sleeve into the lifter galley. With the 409 distributor, all the extra oil bypasses the pump and goes back to the pan.Mine was an old cast version from LGC.