I found a Flow bench SF-600

[SSpev]

yea. Not just useful information ACCURTE as well at 28 inches. Sense I work in R and D, I figured I could make one. It has 8 sharp edge orifices. so I can max out the pressure /flow.
8 vacuum motors I can turn on in pairs. I can switch and flow in both directions. It has been calibrated to a known bench.
I am a geek

 

[1964SuperStocker]

yea. Not just useful information ACCURTE as well at 28 inches. Sense I work in R and D, I figured I could make one. It has 8 sharp edge orifices. so I can max out the pressure /flow.
8 vacuum motors I can turn on in pairs. I can switch and flow in both directions. It has been calibrated to a known bench.
I am a geek

Yours may have been made at home by your own hands but that clearly is beyond shop-vac tech.

 

[Ishiftem]

yea. Not just useful information ACCURTE as well at 28 inches. Sense I work in R and D, I figured I could make one. It has 8 sharp edge orifices. so I can max out the pressure /flow.
8 vacuum motors I can turn on in pairs. I can switch and flow in both directions. It has been calibrated to a known bench.
I am a geek

That’s cool!

 

[1964SuperStocker]

Who among you has extensive experience on an SF-600 flow bench? I have a few questions about work flow. I have yet to find anyone online that does a good explanation from start to finish on testing, logging and options for software.

 

[wristpin]

I'm only 47 and I want to quit and slow down every day. I will be giving them a call to get a 409 plate. There are a few universal plates in the mix I can make it work but I do plan on doing this enough it would really help streamline the process. Especially since I have a bunch of R & D to do before I settle on my budget port and my performance port design for each casting. My cut up head casting library is really going to help my come up with the best designs. I just found two more castings to add to my library, I need to flow all of the factory castings first.

Why can't you 3D print a 409 plate? Just a suggestion wrapped in a question

 

[1964SuperStocker]

I plan to use the piss out of my 409 plate but I'll need to come up with a 348 plate and single/dual notched block configuration for both engines. I have 3 different Brzezinski cylinder sizes to simulate different bores. I need a good way to simulate the notches unique to the 348-409 engine family and custom plates would help with that. I know plenty of people running/racing notch blocks and with my new ability to measure cfm and multiple port velocities at the same time, there may be a combination of heads, block notch and valves the lend themselves to the best performance possible. I think Dan is running a truck block and coming up with other worldly power. I'll be interested in anyone's input on "notch theory". Compression is controlled by most people going with new pistons. Notches in some blocks and the mini chambers in some heads aren't going to stop anyone from getting any compression they like.

 

[Ishiftem]

I’ll save you some time. There is no benefit to the notches. Only negatives. The notch does not change intake flow one bit either way. On the exhaust side it’s practically zero. What the notch does do is add surface area and that is not a good thing. It limits the maximum amount of compression possible. It creates an area of poor burn quality that results in the burn happening too late to make usable cylinder pressure. To achieve the same compression with a notch you must increase the dome. That makes the piston heavier and more lopsided increasing the chance of durability issues and poor ring seal. It also makes the burn worse because the top of the dome will be above the bottom of the notch at peak cylinder pressure. Can you make power with the notch? Yes. Can you make more without? Yes.

 

[427John]

I’ll save you some time. There is no benefit to the notches. Only negatives. The notch does not change intake flow one bit either way. On the exhaust side it’s practically zero. What the notch does do is add surface area and that is not a good thing. It limits the maximum amount of compression possible. It creates an area of poor burn quality that results in the burn happening too late to make usable cylinder pressure. To achieve the same compression with a notch you must increase the dome. That makes the piston heavier and more lopsided increasing the chance of durability issues and poor ring seal. It also makes the burn worse because the top of the dome will be above the bottom of the notch at peak cylinder pressure. Can you make power with the notch? Yes. Can you make more without? Yes.

I always figured that guys used the notched blocks because they were available and not because there were any advantages to them. An available better is always better than a nonexistent best. A single notch 348 is better than a double notch and a single notch 409 is better than a 348 while the no notch 409 is best.

 

[1964SuperStocker]

I’ll save you some time. There is no benefit to the notches. Only negatives. The notch does not change intake flow one bit either way. On the exhaust side it’s practically zero. What the notch does do is add surface area and that is not a good thing. It limits the maximum amount of compression possible. It creates an area of poor burn quality that results in the burn happening too late to make usable cylinder pressure. To achieve the same compression with a notch you must increase the dome. That makes the piston heavier and more lopsided increasing the chance of durability issues and poor ring seal. It also makes the burn worse because the top of the dome will be above the bottom of the notch at peak cylinder pressure. Can you make power with the notch? Yes. Can you make more without? Yes.

All of that makes perfect sense. I'm going to look into it further with testing later. I can't wait to look into measuring velocity through out the runners and around the notches. Applying what I know about computational fluid dynamics, I can't wait to see what my simulations will show. Being able to quickly create prototype and test designs is going to be a game changer.

 

[Ishiftem]

Velocities are where it's at. Otherwise one could just make everything as big as possible to get the biggest cfm number they can. What would really save time and money is to digitize a stock port and chamber, and basically 3d print a square that represents one cylinder. That way you could make it with a removable seat insert so that different seat angles and widths could be easily tested. The inserts could be printed also. 1/2" below the valve and the transition to the deck are where the big gains are going to be. That's what I would do.

 

[SSpev]

I just made my test cylinder over size. 4.5inch velocity, the short side turn and the push rod pinch. Got my heads over 10% across the lift range.

 

[Ishiftem]

I just made my test cylinder over size. 4.5inch velocity, the short side turn and the push rod pinch. Got my heads over 10% across the lift range.

“ across the lift range” that is very important. Sacrificing low lift flow for peak flow is a loser.

 

[boxerdog]

So when you get a port that you are happy with, do you scan/model it? Mold it? Create a template of some kind?

 

[1964SuperStocker]

Velocities are where it's at. Otherwise one could just make everything as big as possible to get the biggest cfm number they can. What would really save time and money is to digitize a stock port and chamber, and basically 3d print a square that represents one cylinder. That way you could make it with a removable seat insert so that different seat angles and widths could be easily tested. The inserts could be printed also. 1/2" below the valve and the transition to the deck are where the big gains are going to be. That's what I would do.

Not to worry Dan, I'll be picking your brain a bunch. Your knowledge/experience of cast iron head work on these engines will be very helpful, any constructive ideas welcome. I'll be your R&D. I have planned basically what you are talking about. I planned on making a removable head surface to bolt to a runner/bowl because valve size, seat angles, mini chambers and my desire to test more on the cylinder notches. I'd also like to experiment on valve stem location.

 

[1964SuperStocker]

So when you get a port that you are happy with, do you scan/model it? Mold it? Create a template of some kind?

If I find one for racing I want to repeat over and over I'll just CNC it. Again, casting shift is an issue. I'll see if I can get a good photo of one of my worst heads.

 

[Iowa 409 Guy]

The cyl block is cast iron. Who has tried to fill the notches? With what and why not?

 

[427John]

The cyl block is cast iron. Who has tried to fill the notches? With what and why not?

I think I saw somewhere someone was asking that question and it seemed the answer was that noone had found a material that would withstand combustion temps reliably,another proposal was to sleeve the cylinders and then backfill the remaining notch behind the sleeve with some kind of epoxy stuff like hard blok and then decking everything flat again, seems like a ton of work but don't see why it wouldn't work. The fill material would only be exposed to normal block temp and would only have to seal the head gasket against coolant and oil the top of the sleeve would be doing the combustion sealing against the fire ring of the head gasket. I think economically it would only be feasible on a block you needed to 8 sleeve anyway. Seems like it would be a waste to do it on a block that didn't otherwise need sleeves. If you were talking about welding them up, I personally would be worried about a chunk of the weld coming loose inside a running engine.

 

[1964SuperStocker]

The cyl block is cast iron. Who has tried to fill the notches? With what and why not?

Yep, sleeve and back fill would be best. The idea of some chunk breaking off would drive me crazy every time the engine is running.

 

[SSpev]

I think welding would be ok if done properly. We here (cummins) have welded pistons without issue.

 

[1964SuperStocker]

I think welding would be ok if done properly. We here (cummins) have welded pistons without issue.

You wouldn't know it was properly done or not unless it came apart. Sleeves are fool proof and back fill would be the best option. Stuck in the back woods with no other option but weld it, I'd weld it in a heart beat. I've driven many jeeps home after welding up axles, transmission cases. I think we welded up a hole in a guys engine block so he could continue to wheel that weekend. I'll try anything once!