Race Engine project planning

Tom Kochtanek

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 13
It might help (or scare off!) others if you were to also detail your costs associated with the parts you already have. On my first build I did this AFTER completion. On my second I did it WHILE I was gathering parts and components. I was more apprehensive on that second one, for me it's better not to know! On my third one I cheaped out and did a gasket/DuPont overhaul :). I like the first two, but you can buy a nice car at auction for the total cost :).

Your listing is a great template for how to do a total rebuild. I think our other Jason did this when he built his 409 for the '64 Biscayne?

Add these all up and it'll scare the feint of heart :) :) :).

Best,
TomK
 
HHMMM... with a roller cam, do you really need any special protection behind the cam gear ? :dunno
Other than the "pull" on the cam from the oil pump, I don't think there is any pressure between the back of the sprocket and the block:dunno
You DO need a cam button of sorts, so the cam does not walk for and aft.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
It might help (or scare off!) others if you were to also detail your costs associated with the parts you already have. On my first build I did this AFTER completion. On my second I did it WHILE I was gathering parts and components. I was more apprehensive on that second one, for me it's better not to know! On my third one I cheaped out and did a gasket/DuPont overhaul :). I like the first two, but you can buy a nice car at auction for the total cost :). Your listing is a great template for how to do a total rebuild. I think our other Jason did this when he built his 409 for the '64 Biscayne?
Add these all up and it'll scare the feint of heart :) :) :). Best, TomK

Thanks Tom, I will list it all out so far in a few minutes. Some of the parts I got a great deal on, or I wouldn't have been able to even think about doing this.

Only thing I would change is the torrington bearing, to many small parts if it takes a shit. Steel would be better for me.
HHMMM... with a roller cam, do you really need any special protection behind the cam gear ? :dunno Other than the "pull" on the cam from the oil pump, I don't think there is any pressure between the back of the sprocket and the block:dunno You DO need a cam button of sorts, so the cam does not walk for and aft.

Very good point. I know needle bearing can take a toll. I have ran a Torrington bearing with no problems in an 468 that I got used once, but it didn't have many miles on it before or after. My 433 only uses an inexpensive Cloyes double roller and a Competition Products roller cam button and cam lock plate. I may just stick with that same set up for this one. Thought I'd read about some having problems with the cam gear contacting the block?
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Like TomK suggested - This is a list of with prices for everything bought so far plus what's planned and an estimate on the value of the stuff I had already.
409 Passenger Block - standard bore '64 340HP - Paid $1000 for the block and extra parts. Knew it was a deal, but didn't realize how much of one until the last few weeks.
348/409 Main bearings - H series - already have ($150 shipped)
Balancing $250
True Roller Timing Set - already have ($55 shipped)
Show Cars 2 piece stamped steel timing cover - already have ($100 shipped)
Distributor adapter/sleeve so I can run my current ignition system - already have ($85)
Correct Length CV Products 3/8" diameter .080" Wall Chromoly pushrods $65
(Will be used from an Ebay seller who has MANY different lengths for $25-35/set of 8)
Solid Roller Cam 265*I/270*E dur@.050" - .680" Lift 110* LSA & istalled 4* advanced. $390
Stef's aluminum oil pan with integral windage screen - already have ($450 shipped)
Jardine Ceramic Coated 2" Fenderwell Headers $750
Ross Forged 11.5:1 pistons. Coated Skirts. Ultra-Lightening. - already have ($1045 shipped)
Childs & Ackerly File-Fit 1/16" Moly Rings - already have ($135)
Scat I-Beam Rods 6.385" with 7/16" capscews - already have ($300)
Scat 4" crank - already have (Thanks Ebay for the 10% off coupon!!) ($800)
Big block chevy rod bearings H series - already have ($75)
Cam Bearings DuraBond CHP-4 (rear bearing modified for W block) - already have ($30)
ARP Main Studs APR 135-5402 - already have ($75)
ARP Head Bolts for Edelbrock Heads- already have ($105)
Fel Pro # FS8007PT-3 Gasket Kit - already have ($90)
Big Block chevy roller cam button and cam lock plate - already have ($15??)
Pro Comp Electric Water Pump - already have ($220)
Small block FluidDampr SFI approved 6.75" Balancer - already have ($35 - used Ebay deal)
168 Tooth SFI approved Flexplate - already have ($35??)
Balancer bolt & washer - already have ($5??)
Small block fuel pump block-off plate - already have ($5??)
Edelbrock heads (As cast @ first, then CNC port work after 1-2 yrs when it's time to refresh) - already have **
Herbert 1.550" Dual Springs - already have ($100 for springs & titanium retainers several years back...still new in box...think they aren't much higher now)
195# @ 1.940" Closed, 600# @ 1.200" Open, 1.150" Coil Bind, .725" Max Lift - already have
Herbert 10* Titanium Retainers - already have
11/32" - 10* + .035" Installed Height Valve Locks - already have ($15)
Herbert Solid Roller Lifters - already have ($285)
1.7:1 Big block roller rockers: Crand Gold Aluminum OR Comp Cams Stainless - already have ($200 used)
Edelbrock black finned aluminum valve covers - already have **
Melling 348/409 #IS55-A heavy duty oil pump driveshaft - already have ($15)
Melling oil pump Late model SBC with 3/4" inlet #M155 - already have ($25 - actually got it for free)
Melling Oil pump pickup/screen Late model SBC with 3/4" inlet #M155 or BBC #77-S2 - already have (Stef's pickup/screen also included with pan)
Stock #881 Dual Quad Intake - already have (came with the block)
Edelbrock #1407 Manual Choke 750cfm Carbs (2) - already have ($400 - still new, but had them for years)
Low mount Alternator Bracket Set - already have ($85)
Machine Shop: Bore/Hone, Align Hone, Install Cam Bearings & Freeze Plugs - already have ($395)

** Edelbrock Heads, black finned valve covers, water pump, & black finned dual quad air cleaner - I got all of these brand new in the boxes for $1700 off of Craigslist. The boxes are dated 2008. They were the deal that started this whole thing. I initially bought the stuff thinking I'd sell it all for a decent profit. Instead it's costing me $$$, but I'm loving it!!

________________________________________
Total $1455 (plus a little more machine work)
Plus everything in Bold $9565
________________________________________
About 1 - 2 years later:
Induction: Hopefully one of Aubrey's Speed Port 7000 single planes $750
Intake Heat Shield - Part of the Speed Port 7000 (standard part with it)
Holley #80496 - HP950 carb - already have ($350 used)
CNC Cylinder Head Port work $1000
So....another $1700 for a grand total of $3205

Adding this last section is kinda negligible since I would have the #881 intake, carbs, aluminum air cleaner, etc. to offset it by a lot. As well as the unused Edelbrock Water pump that came in that pkg deal, and a good crank that came with the block. Should about break even on the second stage I hope.
It
SHOULD still be under $10 grand after all is said and done.
 
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1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Again, I already had a good portion of stuff and have funded the whole thing by selling off old car parts that I've been collecting for the last 25 years. It is kinda scarey looking at it all added up, but on the other hand a decent full roller big block chevy of similar cubic inches with quality aluminum heads and making over 600 HP (which I have high hopes for this one to make around 650) would probably cost nearly as much if starting from scratch & adding up everything involved.
 
Thought I'd read about some having problems with the cam gear contacting the block?

To my knowledge, the potential for the cam sprocket to "mill" into the face of the block, exists only with flat tappet cams. Extremely radical flat tappet solid cams, using high spring pressures ( say, above 150 seat / 350 open ), WILL draw the cam in. In these cases, yes, something is needed to protect the block and sprocket. Personally, I use a torrington bearing. I think the engine even picked up a bit of power with it.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Please don't use that 881 intake even for a short while. Gonna hurt your power for sure
I wasn't expecting to make the power numbers I said until switching to a better intake and having the heads ported, but is it that bad? I know Dan ran pretty good with a stock one on "The Homewrecker" before swapping to an edelbrock. I was just thinking of it as a "get by" until later. Maybe I just need to keep saving up and waiting.
 

Fathead Racing

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 7
Thanks Tom, I will list it all out so far in a few minutes. Some of the parts I got a great deal on, or I wouldn't have been able to even think about doing this.


Very good point. I know needle bearing can take a toll. I have ran a Torrington bearing with no problems in an 468 that I got used once, but it didn't have many miles on it before or after. My 433 only uses an inexpensive Cloyes double roller and a Competition Products roller cam button and cam lock plate. I may just stick with that same set up for this one. Thought I'd read about some having problems with the cam gear contacting the block?

I would run with a protection shim/plate behind the cam gear, it's cheap insurance.
 

Fathead Racing

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 7
I'm not familiar with one.....can you send me a link?
249-201.jpg
http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/201/10002/-1?parentProductId=753163
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
I had a cam gear eat it's way into the block. This was with a hydraulic roller cam. This was on a 409 block but I've heard that some early BBC blocks have also been known to run into this problem.
Isky Cams offers an explanation of why some blocks do this and others don't...
http://www.iskycams.com/camwalk.php
The oil grooves in the hard steel Cloyes cam gear have sharp edges that can work like a cutting bit. If nothing else, it's good to dull those edges down with some emery cloth so they're not as sharp.
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
The cam gear to block is not just a 409 problem as Jim suggests. Early SBC s have the problem too. Ask any machinist at any large performance machine shop and they will tell plenty of horror stories. Anyone building a roller cam motor and does not use protection behind the cam gear is playing with fire. I got burned once so never again.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3

Do I need to have anything machined to use that? Either the front of the block or the back of the cam timing gear? Will it just go right behind the cam gear without doing anything? (That would be nice...so probably not.)

Getting closer, but my hope of firing it up before the first of the year isn't going to happen. Since that is the case, I may just go for the head porting now instead of after a year or two.

I've been researching the distributor adapter sleeve and read that some people had problems with them and others like them. I'm sure it depends on who makes the sleeve. Could any of you who use one and had no problems with it, please post up some more specifics? Thanks in advance, Jason
 

models916

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 7
Pretty sure Show-Cars version is new and improved to limit the wobble and the oil control. Give them a call. I used an old Late Great Chevy/Ecklers version in mine for about 15 minutes and took it out.
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
You'll need to machine down the back of the cam gear,unless the spacer that you use is part of a kit.I seem to remember Ronnie telling me that he had no trouble with the dist.sleeves in a crank-trigger,race application.
 
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