Race Engine project planning
- Thread starter 1961BelAir427
- Start date
I've never actually checked, but I hear the sheet metal intakes cost about $3000. It'll probably be a few years before I could make a step like that. Even then, I don't know if I could justify spending that on an intake when I can get results that are at least fairly decent for much less. I can see them for serious racers who are chasing that last little bit, but I'm more in it for the fun.
Also, I can't see a new sheetmetal intake that would either be too tall to fit under the hood...OR....compromised design with too short runners. I'd have to pick one or the other...so I'd pick "compromised to fit under the hood" and then I'd forever hate spending a ton on something that wasn't optimized.
You won't bother me by asking questions in my threads so don't feel like you're hi-jacking. For instance when you posted the pictures of your headers in this thread and the conversation swung to those for awhile. I was loving it!
This whole thing I hope will be a lot of help to someone in the future as it is my first W build and I'm trying to get all of that stuff answered in once place. Maybe if someone searching runs across this it'll save them some time. Our members who have so much experience and knowledge on this stuff have been generous with sharing info and answering everything. Some of the questions I have asked in this thread just so the reply would be shown on here.....I'd already been answered on the phone, email, or another thread. Just to hopefully consolidate all the good info.
I think it is earlier in this thread to check with anything over .550" lift in a passenger block. Also, the truck block will usually clear up to about .730" but should always be checked as well. I think you're duration numbers would not effect this figure at all since the block is stationary. With valve to piston clearance duration effects it a lot since they determine where the piston is at in the bore in relation to the valve opening. Minimum V-to-P clearance is usually not at Top Dead Center.
I'm a little less conservative on cam choise (maybe that is why I didn't do as well on THE TEST ?) but not by much and dependent on whether you're building a stroker or stock crank. I'd say what Don said if going with a hydraulic flat tappet. Maybe slightly bigger with a hydraulic roller......and add 10 to 20 degrees @ .050" duration for a solid flat tappet. I think the lash absorbs some of the duration numbers or something like that. I know you have to have slightly more duration for a solid flat tappet to have similar manners to a hydraulic. It will almost always make more power too....especially at the upper end.
Both Brian (BSL409) and Dick MacKenzie have (had?) an Isky solid lifter cam for sale at a great price right now.
Dick's would be a touch more street friendly......and Brian's more towards the strip side.....in my opinion.....but both would be stout street/strip camshafts.
Last edited:
Thank you for the replys.
Another month has gone by with nothing new to report, but I saw Jim mention it in another thread so an update is due. Lately all of the spare time has went to working on the every day vehicles and yard work. Finally had to break down and buy another van for the family car today, but we made out okay I think at $3250 for a one-owner Pontiac Montana with 127,000 miles that's fully loaded including a dvd player. No car payments for us!! Along with all the maintenance records was the window sticker showing $33,700 when new. Aren't ya'll glad our old Chevys don't depreciate like that???!!!!
Things left to do:
1. Mock up rotating assembly to check deck height and see how (un)square the block is. Hoping to get by with little to no surfacing of the decks.
2. Notch cylinder walls in the chamber area for exhaust valve clearance with a large roller cam. I'm thinking .800" would give clearance for up to .750" lift with a .050" safety margin. I have read about many notching the chamber walls for clearance, but never heard anyone mention how thick the block is in this area???? Will I be in danger of the notch making the cylinder wall to thin?
3. Balance the rotating assembly.
4. Order camshaft.
5. Have heads ported.
6. Assemble !!!
Some of the hold up has been a good portion of the build-fund going towards something I'll talk about soon. I think you'll all approve that it was worth the delay.
Things left to do:
1. Mock up rotating assembly to check deck height and see how (un)square the block is. Hoping to get by with little to no surfacing of the decks.
2. Notch cylinder walls in the chamber area for exhaust valve clearance with a large roller cam. I'm thinking .800" would give clearance for up to .750" lift with a .050" safety margin. I have read about many notching the chamber walls for clearance, but never heard anyone mention how thick the block is in this area???? Will I be in danger of the notch making the cylinder wall to thin?
3. Balance the rotating assembly.
4. Order camshaft.
5. Have heads ported.
6. Assemble !!!
Some of the hold up has been a good portion of the build-fund going towards something I'll talk about soon. I think you'll all approve that it was worth the delay.
The sonic tester shows that the car block has the material thickness to be notched just like the truck block. I checked this on my #422 car block when I machined a small clearance relief for exhaust lift of .667". (You don't need much.) I think the raw casting is the same for both car and truck application. I would expect the decks to be .008" to .012" out of square.
Last edited:
Maybe,someone's putting up a shop??.....
Thanks for the reply! I know the truck blocks are notched starting right at the deck, whereas the car blocks that I've seen pictures of notched for a large cam - the notches appear to be down farther into the chamber/cylinder wall. I just didn't want to ruin a block.
No
I'm going to have to wait awhile longer on that.....although I am probably going to go ahead and enclose the 18' x 20' carport and have a slab poured to get me by until I can build a bigger one. That'll be a whole lot better than no shop at all. Sorry for being all secretive, but I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch either.
CDNpontiac409guy
Banned
The factory cylinder wall / combustion chamber will accommodate up to about .580" lift at the valve... so approx .600" on a solid lifter cam. The amount of "notch" that you require for lifts higher than that, so so small... I mean it's just a little "brow". For .700" lift, I doubt the depth needs to be more than maybe .030" deep. There's no movement or shifting around with these parts in relation to each other. All you need, is for it to not touch.... nothing more.
And do NOT let your machinist enlarge the counter-bore
And do NOT let your machinist enlarge the counter-bore
Thanks Aubrey.
Jason, With all the effort you putting into this project in the quest for big dependable power, you need to look at what it will cost to port the heads. I've yet to hear of a legitimate shop getting more than 330 cfm. If you could peddle those heads to a guy building a street car I could get you a set CNC ported to a good 375. on a small(4.310) bore fixture. We have a street port that peaks around 350 with better numbers down low, (Under .650 lift) You could be 100 hp better for the same money.
E heads have been on back order since christmas so it may be easy to sell yours. Plus it would be good to have a brutal street car roaming the streets of Georgia.
Bob
E heads have been on back order since christmas so it may be easy to sell yours. Plus it would be good to have a brutal street car roaming the streets of Georgia.
Bob
And if you have questions with anything Bob.Walla sells, he's right there to answer your concerns, not some high school dropout reading a catalogue.
I don't have a lot of the answers, but I can always find someone that does.
I was being kind Bob, I'm pretty sure by now most the members know your not to bright.
The build fund is BUSTED right now Bob. The idea of selling my heads to a guy building a street motor and buying yours is a good one, but where would I find someone building a 409 and looking for E heads? Almost everyone I know who builds W's are on here.....and all of them (us) would likely buy yours instead of my Edelbrocks. I would have done the same if not for the package deal I got on the E parts. I could try listing them on Ebay and seeing how that goes. ??? Between their 10% of whatever I'd get for the heads (plus they take 10% of shipping costs now) AND the 3 or 4 % that Paypal takes......I'd be lucky to end up with $1300 for the complete pair and they are brand new. Maybe I should skip having the Edelbrocks ported and just save that money towards a cylinder head upgrade next year. That would get this thing built quicker too.
Despite (joking) comments from Bob & Ray that followed the above quote - that is absolutely RIGHT! Bob is always right here for all of us with tips and advice. Not to mention the wonderful products he has made available. I'm not able to afford a set of BWR raised port heads or a block right now, but maybe if I can move some more rat motor parts I will within the next few years. I can hope....and try anyway.
I also want to take this chance to CONGRATULATE Bob & Nick on being accepted to compete in the EMC!!!! I think that Congratulations may also be due to Aubrey as I'm pretty sure his intake (maybe other stuff too?) will have a part in this. I will be praying that ya'll do extremely well and get lots of exposure from this. Just being a 409 build will most likely get some magazine coverage before the competition even takes place. We are all very excited and very proud of you guys!!!
Thanks Jason. Getting accepted is pretty simple. Doing well will be tough. There will be a lot of reaching out on my part. Winners have spent more money on this deal than I did on my house, no BS.
In reality, many more guys on the forum are using the E heads than mine. The guys that have them usually go faster. We live in a world where the big draw is lower price. The only way to sell mine after the E heads came out was to hack the price. We went through a big learning curve. Took a strong product and made it better each time.
I can tell you for a fact. A large corporation won't make parts for these motors because the money isn't there. Our passion is for a motor that was short lived, because they kept finding ways to improve the original design. The current best is the DRCE Pro Stock combo.
Sure, we can make our motors better.Many guys here have built motors that would have spanked The Grump. Small blocks and big blocks are like belly buttons...Everyone has at least one!
Bob
In reality, many more guys on the forum are using the E heads than mine. The guys that have them usually go faster. We live in a world where the big draw is lower price. The only way to sell mine after the E heads came out was to hack the price. We went through a big learning curve. Took a strong product and made it better each time.
I can tell you for a fact. A large corporation won't make parts for these motors because the money isn't there. Our passion is for a motor that was short lived, because they kept finding ways to improve the original design. The current best is the DRCE Pro Stock combo.
Sure, we can make our motors better.Many guys here have built motors that would have spanked The Grump. Small blocks and big blocks are like belly buttons...Everyone has at least one!
Bob
And Ray, I should upgrade to maybe a 60 watt. I know I'm not that bright!!! Luv ya Man!!
61 Bubble
Well Known Member
Bob, you bring a really nice product to the table from what I've been told. GOOD WORK MAN. We will have to get something together in the near future (umm HI PORTS I think) and see what we can do. DOUBT a max effort, but WILL be plenty stout for the street. Have to get my life worked out and these 3 cars finished, plus the new house.
Do you have these head available in "CUBE" form???? Or semi finished WITHOUT and head bolt/pushrod holes?
Do you have these head available in "CUBE" form???? Or semi finished WITHOUT and head bolt/pushrod holes?
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Edelbrock did the same deal when they came out with the first Pontiac heads-made a small run then back order for a year or so. I was initially shocked they made them for our Ws-didn't think they would have the demand.
Not to take anything away from Bob's heads, since you have the E heads you might just use them. My Edelbrock's flowed 290/305 through the intake manifold depending upper or lower plenum and 320ish "plain" and 260 on the exhaust side on a stingy flow bench(my 696HP 500" Pontiac heads on the same bench only flowed 342). They made 604 HP with a streetable 252/251@ 0.050 solid roller and 10.25:1 pump gas compression. Bigger cam, more compression and might have gotten even more. Not sure what the goal for your motor is but 600+ HP should be deep in the 10s in a full sized car.
Dave Bisshop at SD performance has a CNC for the 409 heads not sure their flow. His CNC jobs are pretty reasonably priced. I just had him do a 325 cfm set of Pontiac heads for me that checked fairly close on this same bench. The Pontiac guys also had to go to no pushrod holes andoffest drill for offset lifters then even the newer KRE High Ports or Edelbrock ProPorts(or the low vlume TIger heads) to get closer to 400.
Bob I have eight Comp SS 1.8s if you need some to try on the EMC deal.
Not to take anything away from Bob's heads, since you have the E heads you might just use them. My Edelbrock's flowed 290/305 through the intake manifold depending upper or lower plenum and 320ish "plain" and 260 on the exhaust side on a stingy flow bench(my 696HP 500" Pontiac heads on the same bench only flowed 342). They made 604 HP with a streetable 252/251@ 0.050 solid roller and 10.25:1 pump gas compression. Bigger cam, more compression and might have gotten even more. Not sure what the goal for your motor is but 600+ HP should be deep in the 10s in a full sized car.
Dave Bisshop at SD performance has a CNC for the 409 heads not sure their flow. His CNC jobs are pretty reasonably priced. I just had him do a 325 cfm set of Pontiac heads for me that checked fairly close on this same bench. The Pontiac guys also had to go to no pushrod holes andoffest drill for offset lifters then even the newer KRE High Ports or Edelbrock ProPorts(or the low vlume TIger heads) to get closer to 400.
Bob I have eight Comp SS 1.8s if you need some to try on the EMC deal.