409 Cam (mistakes have been made)

[409Steve62]

Very new to the W block club, Brought my dream car in to New Zealand from California in march 2023. Since then its been a bit of a nightmare with a cracked/poorly repaired block in the car. Did manage to source a rebuilt 64 425hp block here luckily but after months of hard work and some bad advice that the z33 cam was just a street cam. The car is running.... Very badly ( yes same ol story of the bottom of the page cam but i didnt know ) Cant get out of the hole unless i rev the crap out of it . Its rich. i fowl plugs even after a dyno tune. I was basically told by the dyno guy i have to drive it hard all the time. Not really a car i can take the wife & young fella for a cruise in. Thats the short version.... All i know is that cam has to go

The Guys who have helped me get this far i totally appreciate there help but the 409 engines are a different beast so i need some help from experienced peeps

Anyway i know there are plenty of cam discussions on this website & i Have read most of them. But i am still seeking some advice for which cam to purchase. Thats near 409/409 spec for my 62 or just going to get us cruising with some grunt. What cam will suit my tall rear end? I see the showcars 0950-0951 cams mentioned before for powerglide guys. I really want to stick with the dual quads so can i have it all? At the moment I'm a bit deflated but hopeful

Here are the details

3:08 rear gears
T10 original 4 speed
64 409 block 80 over
stock 690 heads
winters dual intake
2x edelbrock 500 avs2 1903,1904
dougs headers (at the moment but maybe considering back to cast)

With the low vacuum the cam provides those edelbrocks and has been a right pain, I do Have my original carter carbs 3361s, 3362. Im thinking of going back to my carters only because of the nightmare so far. Any Help appreciated. will post some engine pics tomorrow

 

[MRHP]

A 355 gear would be better, and so would a steep first gear to get the old gal moving. The Z33 isn’t that radical for the street. I thing the tune may be off. A smaller cam would help low speed drivability. Your Edelbrocks are fine. Just find someone to tune them. Where do you have your timing set at? Initial and total. Are you using a vacuum advance? Do you know the compression of the motor? Properly tuned, the car should run ok with that cam.

 

[409Steve62]

A 355 gear would be better, and so would a steep first gear to get the old gal moving. The Z33 isn’t that radical for the street. I thing the tune may be off. A smaller cam would help low speed drivability. Your Edelbrocks are fine. Just find someone to tune them. Where do you have your timing set at? Initial and total. Are you using a vacuum advance? Do you know the compression of the motor? Properly tuned, the car should run ok with that cam.

I think I’m at 14-16 Initial with a heavy & light spring in the msd dizzy and blue stopper to max it out at 32-34 total , deleted the vacuum advance. Has 6al box running the dizzy. Compression should be up there next to factory but not entirely certain . Don’t get me wrong at full throttle she goes hard. But the dyno showed it choking at 5000 so I assumed my heads didn’t have the airflow to support the cam as it would richen up the mix under WOT . Another issue maybe the hydraulic lifters. Can’t find any info anywhere where it’s says they sell the z33 with hydraulic but that’s how it was in my previous motor so we stuck it in. Could be wrong there. There’s been some comical events on the lead up till Xmas so I’m here speculating the reasons it’s not going so well/ and googling

 

[boxerdog]

That cam should be OK, but it is meant for solid lifters and .024 / .028 lash.

There are a lot of cams that would be better, however, for what you are doing.

 

[Murphdog]

From what Isky says that cam is 250° @ 050. My 2¢ would be that is way to much cam for a cruiser w/3.08 gears. "Don’t get me wrong at full throttle she goes hard." would be about right. Not something you would want to ease into town with the family for an ice cream with. 3.55 gears should make a very noticeable improvement in drive ability. Not a big fan of straight pattern cams either. Don't claim to be a camspert, but I think you can work with a small cam more so than a cam that's to big.
Jeff

 

[Don Jacks]

You"ve hit the nail o the head with the lifters.The Z 33 is a solid lifter cam. Since it isn't a good idea to put ew lifters on an old cam,I'd suggest checking out Howards Hyd.cams and lifters.Get something in the 224 in.,230 ex.range at about .525-..535 lift.A 110 lobe seperation would be good for the rest of your combo once you get it tuned.

 

[boxerdog]

If the 3.08 gear is combined with a 2.20 low gear t-10 in particular, you will have an almost undriveable combination with most serious camshafts. Like Jeff says, a 3.55 gear would be very helpful. Recently ran in a 409 with a mid-range straight pattern Isky hydraulic roller from Showcars with original carbs that ran and idled very well.

 

[Jim Sullivan]

Welcome to the great site Steve. I'm running a 3.08 posi in my four door. I originally had a power glide behind my dual quad 09 and it was a rfeal dog. I upgraded to a 700R4, and with the low first gear, it woke right up. I'm only guessing, but I would think your 4 speed would have a first gear somewhere between a glide and the 700R4. So shouldn't be too bad there. If your running rich at all, I'd guess your issue is with the carb tuning or possible sunken float. Edelbrock's are very easy to tune, I just followed the supplied tuning charts for mine, and they tuned up very nice. If I can tune them, anyone can. LOL

 

[blkblk63ss]

Sounds for sure cam is your issue as Don jacks here mention's. Take his advice he is really knowledgeable. There is a member on this site that has a factory 425 HP 63 convertible that he installed a hydraulic cam very mild and he drove it from California to a convention here in great bend,ks and getting 15 mpg with a five speed tranny. Can't think of his name at the moment . Sounds like this combo would be more what you are looking for. I do know overcammed can be a dog as I went through same situation in a 327 a few years ago,switched to a more milder cam made all the difference in the world.From a dog to a tire burner with a 350 tranny but the same 355 posi .

 

[boxerdog]

T-10s are normally 2.20 or 2.54. Huge difference compared to a 700r4 at 3.06.
Nearly 40% overall. I think I'd look for a friendlier gear, then think about de-camming it. I might try a set of solid lifters properly installed just out of curiosity.

2.20x3.08 = 6.776
2.54x3.08 = 7.823
3.06x3.08 = 9.428

 

[Rickys61]

T-10s are normally 2.20 or 2.54. Huge difference compared to a 700r4 at 3.06.
Nearly 40% overall. I think I'd look for a friendlier gear, then think about de-camming it. I might try a set of solid lifters properly installed just out of curiosity.

2.20x3.08 = 6.776
2.54x3.08 = 7.823
3.06x3.08 = 9.428

Definitely need to really figure out the details of the combination… Like Dave said, if it’s a 2:20 first gear with a 3:08 rear, no can change will fix that.. I had a Isky Z-66 in my 380 at first… not sure what the difference is between that and the 33, but taking it out and going to a roller is one of my biggest regrets I have with the changes I’ve made…
Rick

 

[Gliderider06]

A thought. Wouldn't hydraulic lifters on a solid cam completely alter cam/valve timing and lift? I was under the impression that with FT cam, you cannot swap the lifters (solid for hydraulic) and it run properly.
I think I would if it were me:
1) change lifters to solids
2) add vac. Advance and 36* total before vac advance.
3) tune current carbs
4) 3.55 gears
Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[La Hot Rods]

One would think that with hydraulic lifters it would advance the cam timing. That would help the lower rpm power.
I would spend a little more time on carburetor tuning. It should not be loading up and fouling the spark plugs.

 

[32witha409]

The hydraulic lifters on a mechanical cam will open the valves on the lash ramps, bleeding off tons of cylinder pressure and exhaust reversion. Going back to solids will take away a lot of the radicalness you are experiencing.
I agree with Don that you should not install new lifters on a worn in cam but in this case, the solids will oil better and probably survive if the can has very low mileage on it.

 

[boxerdog]

I agree with Don on the lifters, but I would do it anyway unless the cam is damaged already. It will dramatically shorten up that cam in all directions. But use a decent lifter if you attempt it, lots of moly lube and careful setup and break in. Any flat tappets scare me today. Must be getting old.

 

[Ishiftem]

I agree solids will help but it’s still going to be a dog with that stock stroke and 3.08 gear. Not the cam you want if you want snappy manners below 3000 rpm. You also have other issues. It should not be fouling plugs and should pull to 6500 no problem. My 480” engine and ported iron heads made 700 hp at 7k.

 

[409Steve62]

Thanks to everyone for your advice & knowledge. yes there are other issues. If your running hydraulic lifters on a solid cam the lash has to be super tight to compensate (so the internet says). It wasn't.... it got to hard for me to figure out so spent the $$ to go to the dyno but the guy just didn't have the experience. power drop at 5000 & timing and the rest of it has given me Lots of frustration and hair pulling for the last week i have dived deep into cam specs, googling & reading this website. All I know its just time to change that cam to get the motor running right, then nail timing then carb tuning.

I believe my gearbox has a 2.54 first gear having the W code on it. I have read somewhere that the z33 cams more suit strokers

Howards cams are very economical & within my budget as my wife wants to strangle me about $$ already spent

I have filled out a comp cams website form so i will see what they come back with out of curiosity

Thanks Don for those cam numbers, i will definitely start looking for a cam in that spec. get the old girl running properly & Change the rear gear to 3.55 after that if need be.

 

[Don Jacks]

Please report back as to Comp's recommendations BEFORE you spend the money.Comp's flat tappet cams are about as expensive as a roller cam,and their spec's may be bigger than you really need for a cruiser that you would be comfortable driving a distance[and keeping the better half happy].I may be wrong but I suspect that a bit if not most of your over 5000 rpm issues are caused by unstable valVe train action due to the incorreect lifters .it's most likely approaching valve float.

 

[Murphdog]

Interesting, looks like you have 58 / 348 valve covers on this.
Jeff

 

[scott hall]

Beings you have the tri-y headers don't do the 4-7 swap on the cam if it's offered.