409 vs Big Block Debate

[Bubbletop Bel-Air]

I have one 409/409 in a Bubbletop and three BBC's. A 454 in my dually, a 502 in my boat, and a 540 in my race car. Each does the job for which it was intended very well. I have to dispute CPG's statement about W's being easier to work on, especially his statement about installing pistons, nothing is easier than sliding one of my 540 pistons through a tapered ring compressor, try that with that 74 degree deck, and if he thinks a BBC lacks good sound, he has never heard an NHRA Pro Stock 500 inch motor cross the finish line at 9800 rpm. No way a W motor could even be considered in the same league as a well prepared BBC. I love my 409 Bel-Air, but realize it is a classic muscle car, not a wanna be racer.

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

I have to dispute CPG's statement about W's being easier to work on, especially his statement about installing pistons, nothing is easier than sliding one of my 540 pistons through a tapered ring compressor, try that with that 74 degree deck, and if he thinks a BBC lacks good sound, he has never heard an NHRA Pro Stock 500 inch motor cross the finish line at 9800 rpm.

HHMMM....
The exhaust note is not a debate. It is FACT . Yes, I've heard a big RPM BBC... Pro Mod to be exact. Wonderful RPM. Still doesn't change the fact that it sounds like it's going to scatter itself !
There is a video of a 62 Belair post with a big RPM 409 and a Jerico. It would effectively void any opposing "discussion" about the sound quality bang

Installing pistons ? Guess I'm just used to it.... No ring compressor or other apparatus required. Simply position your rings ( rod hanging verticle toward the crank... crank throw at BDC ), and gently bump the top of the piston with the palm of your hand.

 

[Mr.Jimmy]

Aubrey,

Is your site down??

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Server hiccup, Mr Jimmy. Should be going again this evening.
Email is working fine though:

aubrey@bruneauperformance.ca
or
mr64pontiac@1964pontiac.ca
or
cpg@canadianpontiac.ca
or
canadian_pontiac_guy@yahoo.ca

 

[Bubbletop Bel-Air]

To answer drotops original question..........NO :takethat

 

[droptop62]

I really thought you guys would start pulling out information and compare torque and horsepower and power to weight ratios, etc............
So my conclusion is most are in favor of the Big Block being a better engine, but most would rather have a 409 because they like the uniqueness of having the W engine.
Looks, and sound don't count as part of this debate, due to it being based on opinion.
(This was not a beauty pagent, nor a singing contest.)
Fatride did a good job at explaining his choice though.
All in all, I like all things chevrolet, and have an appreciation for all the different types of GM products and technology from the mid 50's to the very early 70's
Maybe somebody will pull a rabbit from their hat and lay down information on either the big block or 348/409 that makes a compelling case of why one might be better than the other

:stooges

 

[Fathead Racing]

409 vs BB Chevy

We could look back as far as the "dyno fuel" engine existed . Was the Ford 390 or the Mopar 413 and pontiac 389 considered as BBs?? What do you think the drivers would have said at the time (Let's say 1962 or 63) when they were talking to the likes of Hayden Proffitt at the end of the 1320' if they were asked this question? : The name of the game is development! The HP 350 ci engine of today without any bolt ons or tuning would out run all but the BEST of the 409 cars of 61 through 65. So is the small block a better engine than the W ?? Naw! Apples to apples, Let's try and make the W engines that we have the best we can. Let's run the cars of that era. Bring on the 390s 389s and 413s! :evil

 

[tripowerguy]

I have no idea how the weak block idea got started. It is like when Ford did in Tucker, you keep hammering an idea long enough and people begin to believe it. When nothing but W engines dominated SS drag racing (58 -62) You would see 25 in the SS class and one time at Lions over a hundred. In all that time I never saw a W blow up. These cars all ran factory rods pistons and POWER shifted at 6500 rpm. I'm not saying some didn't blow but I'm saying I never witnessed any. I saw rearends, axles and trans blow up. I saw plenty of small blocks spread their guts all over the track.

 

[droptop62]

I have no idea how the weak block idea got started. It is like when Ford did in Tucker, you keep hammering an idea long enough and people begin to believe it. When nothing but W engines dominated SS drag racing (58 -62) You would see 25 in the SS class and one time at Lions over a hundred. In all that time I never saw a W blow up. These cars all ran factory rods pistons and POWER shifted at 6500 rpm. I'm not saying some didn't blow but I'm saying I never witnessed any. I saw rearends, axles and trans blow up. I saw plenty of small blocks spread their guts all over the track.

Nobody here said the 409s are weak and come apart.
But it is a fact that the W blocks crack. it is a flaw as far as I am concerned.
There are far too many 348 and 409 blocks that have the exact same crack in the exact same spot. Most of the time the block is repairable and usable, but in my mind still an issue that is not observed on the other chevrolet engines.

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Droptop....
Where is the "exact same crack in the exact same spot" which you make reference to ?

 

[droptop62]

Droptop....
Where is the "exact same crack in the exact same spot" which you make reference to ?

The water jacket on both sides of the block under the cylinder head deck.
Do a search right here on this site and you will quite a few threads on this topic.
I know this isn't the first time of you have heard of this.
My block has a crack in one side that has been repaired. I think Jim Kwiatkowski had a crack issue, but I will let him say whether or not this is true. The 58 348 tripower engine I had, had both sides crack.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3141&highlight=cracked+block
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3746&highlight=cracked+block
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3156&highlight=cracked+block
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2395&highlight=cracked+block
This one here is interesting because you were the first to respond and note that the crack is very common.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2067&highlight=cracked+block

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

EXACTLY !!!!!

That is the crack that a referred to earlier, but my statement was discounted

That is the crack that occurs from BAFOONS not putting antifreeze in the cooling system.
It's a freeze crack, and is NOT a defect ( other than defective owner )

 

[droptop62]

EXACTLY !!!!!

That is the crack that a referred to earlier, but my statement was discounted

That is the crack that occurs from BAFOONS not putting antifreeze in the cooling system.
It's a freeze crack, and is NOT a defect ( other than defective owner )

I guess only Bafoons own 409s then because it is not an issue with the big block or small block chev. (Yeah maybe on occaison but not like the 348/409)
Hey Jim Kwiatkowski, Aubrey just called you a Baffoon.
Jim has has had his 409 for twenty some years if my memory serves me correctly.
I would bet that Jim has taken loving care of his 57 with the 409, he is a huge car guy and knows what it takes to take propper care of a car, and his 409 still cracked.

Jim,
Sorry to use you for my argument, but your block is my defense to what aubrey is trying to say is caused by idiots instead of a weakness in the design of the 348/409.

And to all 409 members, just remember if for any reason your block cracks you are an idiot according to aubrey.

Now you can post some more large yelling type faces in your defense.

 

[chevymusclecars]

The block on Ebay has a small crack but it has been repaired nicely. Surely you wouldn't blame a small crack like this on the lack of Anti Freeze.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=4536501700&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT

 

[wrench]

hee hee

The block on Ebay has a small crack but it has been repaired nicely. Surely you wouldn't blame a small crack like this on the lack of Anti Freeze.

Wow, I didn't do that bad on my FIRST welding lesson!

Oh, well, if it works, it works. Keeping 09's running is what matters.

 

[JimKwiatkowski]

Cracked Block

Ok guy's first off my crack was a minor crack that was that 1 1/2" long,I repaired it with stop leak and and its fine now.I've had this block since 1982 and its been in a heated garage,maybe this slight crack was there and I never noticed it I know what Aubrey is talking about and I know he dosn't consider me BAFOON.I think these W-motors were stored in junkyards and backyards with water and froze.I wonder if any southern W-motors had any problems cracking blocks.

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

I know what Aubrey is talking about and I know he dosn't consider me BAFOON.I think these W-motors were stored in junkyards and backyards with water and froze.I wonder if any southern W-motors had any problems cracking blocks.

Nuff said !

OK Droptop, you ARE right... "Bafoon" was a little over the top. But MAN, I'm serious... in the north where it at night time it drops below freezing for more than 6 months of the year, this IS an issue.

I have a good customer northern Alberta. He brought his car down to me to do some body work. Sat outside over the weekend, and it had dropped to 10 F over night.
The 350 cracked so bad that it even busted the heads.

OH, BTW... it was a Chevelle convertible

 

[1958 impala]

348&409s rule, where will the 454s, 502s,427s rank in 40 plus years who knows but we all can be positive the W moters will still be highly ranked.My own 2 cents on cracks is Ive owned a dozen 409 348s beat the hell out of them and never had a crack.As I stated before Ws RULE.

 

[Firepower354]

Winters in the north can tear up some iron, regardless of brand. It's gotta be real cold and have NO antifreeze, truly baffoonish behavior. Check the bottom pics. I am not responsible for that crack or repair, it came with a barn cleanout with a half dozen decent ones. You rarely see cracked SBCs because it's not worth the trouble to fix one. I've got them stacked like cordwood. Be sure to be environmentally responsible and thouroughly wash them before dropping them in the pond

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=4530056188&sspagename=STRK:MEUS:IT

The W and MKIV share the same short rods, difficulty getting good quench, and heavy valvetrain. How history treats them will have to wait, but price an original LS6, L88, L71, Z16 etc and see the numbers are climbing. Sadly the W didn't have time to evolve farther before being morphed into the MKIV. A new Dart 409 with raised decks and siamese bores, along with a reduction in price for aluminum heads might make it a fairer fight....I'm still planning a stroked W for my 59 "Ill-
Camino"


The Ws are cool, no doubt, but my low buck 496/505cid 9:1 truck block jobs with big valves in ported oval port heads make 525hp and near 600lb/ft torque. I know there are bigger number stroked Ws, but at what cost? Nostalgia is great, and I'm not speaking ill of the W or any other "obsolete" (Hot Rod mag cover '77) engine. My hemi's cost (and weigh) tons to build moderate power. The Ws scalloped valve covers are the big draw. GMC V6 305-478 guys love them too, along with Spitfire, Saratoga, and Windsor from team M. Mine've got holes in the middle, kids love it.

Technology triumphs over fond memories. Look at the newest LS7 Vette: 500 in car horses, 2 valve, pushrod, naturally aspirated, with a warranty and smooth idle. 400hp in the rear drive Sunbird they pass off as a GTO. Ugly little engine though.

Fatride said it best. It should all be kept in context and compared to the other engines of the era. Ford, Mopar, and Chevy all started the BB programs humbly about the same time with 352, 350, 348s and grew them into formidible weapons. GMs started strong but conservative engineering and research let the others get away from them in the mid-60s though. Hemis and cammers, oh my! Flipping through my collection of Hot Rod from 58-65 shows no clear-cut winners. Pontiac was in it big, Olds was fading fast. Drag or oval? "Stock" class, AFX, pick a year and venue to nail it down. Chevy did very well in stock bodied competition, but the lack of the Ws in diggers shows the limited ultimate potential.

 

[Fran Preve]

CDN: I'll disagree, that was a weak spot on W blocks. If they were ALL caused by freezing water you'd see it in other places. Besides, that's what freeze plugs are for.

The big block debate is a good time killer. The W was designed in the 1955 area when machined combustion chambers were considered the way to go to up the compression with the junk octanes they had back then, the first 352 Fords had machined chambers too. Anyway, performance wasn't the reason for the W design, and whatever they got out of it was a "gift". Unique, distinctive, different, out of the ordinary, all good reasons to own one now. But performance?. Put the same effort and money into any other engine and you'll go as fast or faster. But this is a W block web site so I guess it's to be expected.