61 SS ?s

[MK IISS]

'61 409 "Q" Block

Tom: If the block is casting #3795623 then to my knowledge it couldn't be argued it wasn't a '61 block because that casting # was unique to '61.

Richard

 

[bowtieollie]

...The engine identification sheets for 1961 show the 409 engine asembly number crossing over to suffix code QA...


Fran, if you have this information - I would like to see it.

At what point does the QA come online?

 

[Phil Reed]

well........????

All I know is what I have been able to see. In 20 plus years of buying and selling 348 & 409 parts, I have been fortunate to have owned 4 real #3795623 blocks or shortblock assemblies. In fact, I have one here in the shop at this time. All 4 blocks were stamped with only the "Q" engine code. The one here now is a B2361 casting date and T0413Q assembly date.

Now, do I believe that Fran has records showing QA and QB? Absolutely. But only from the perspective that Chevy engineers started 2 to 4 years prior, we've been thru that before here on a different thread. It might have been on paper in 1961 because they were going to be coming out with the 2 new horsepower ratings in 1962. That would be the obivious progression....Q in 1961 because they only had the one engine to offer. 62 had two new engines that necessaited the QA and QB designations. Then 63 came along, and all the new "Q" codes for them. But I haven't seen any "legit" untouched 1961 409 engines or cars that had a 2 digit engine code.

The "real" debate on 61 blocks is: how many digits in the casting number were "stamped" into the block instead of being the raised numbers that we are accustomed to???? I have seen all seven stamped and would consider them a forgery. Most I've seen had the "7" stamped into the block. The second digit was ground off and the 7 stamped in it's place. Supposedly because the guy who was casting them put the wrong number in the mold. I've seen many like that. NOW.....the block I have here now IS THE ONLY #3795623 BLOCK I HAVE EVER SEEN WHERE ALL THE NUMBERS ARE RAISED!!!! Go figure!!!

That's all I know about this!! The above mentioned information and 50 cents will still get you a cup of coffee in most midwestern restaurants!!!!

 

[Fran Preve]

Phil: You da MAN!. My records show a QA but there's NOTHING like having a REAL expert come in with what he's actually SEEN. Your right, I'm wrong and I stand corrected. Chevy usually did this, a single letter on the suffix and then as they added models adding more suffix codes. So the Q is a 409 from 1961, when there was only one version and changing to QA and QB when TWO versions came out in 1962, and then more and more as more versions were built, the 340's, transistor ignition etc.

As for the casting numbers I won't comment as I haven't a clue on what, why or how they did it back in the 50's and 60's. The 1961 was a very low production engine and in the limited quanties built, including pre-production builds, anything is possible. Any one who worked in the foundry back then at LEAST 60 plus years old, and most in their 70's or '80's. The foundry closed in 1984. Finding out accurate facts now is a slim possibility at best. But someone like Phil Reed would be the best source of what has been SEEN, and this site would be an excellant place to gather all this information in one place, especially now that digital cameras make recording this easily possible. This is what the National Corvette Restorers Society did, took all the information they could find on a subject, gather it in one place and sort it out.

 

[Fran Preve]

The 1961 SS was a "halo" car, Chevrolet wanted as wide publicity as it could get considering the number of ASSEMBLY LINE cars built. There were three obvious choices for engine, the 305 which was the only one built with an automatic, and the 350hp (why buy a 340 when for a couple of dollars more you could get tri power?). If you wanted an automatic you had one choice, the 305hp, and MANY people either couldn't drive a stick or didn't care too. Chevy or a Chevy dealer could put ANYONE into an automatic equipped to show it off and for test drives, only someone who could drive a stick could drive a 4 speed. By the way, go to the part of the board with road tests, look up the Motor Trend road test of the 1961 Impala SS with a 409, how "drivable" do you think the big horse motors were?.

With over 6000 Chevy dealers and less tha 500 assembly line cars who do you think got them?. Podunk dealers or big city?. Why aren't there more 350hp cars?. I've just explained that, plus THEY HAD THE SNOT BEAT OUT OF THEM!.

Ollie: I don't RAM anything down ANYONES throat, but when someone says something I know to be incorrect I'll shoot my mouth off, take it for what it's worth. As far as your comment "you know someone...........", well tell him to spread his information around, clue us in, tell us his history, where he got his information. Everything I'VE said is documented, and I EXPLAIN why I feel as I do, why things were as they were. You say "I know someone..........". But "he doesn't want to..............." . Tell him I'll match him document for document, any time.

And Ollie: i haven't spoken of the MKIV except where it pertains directly to the W.

Tom: where actual numbers are NOT available then you can make and educated guess from statistical numbers. But that's all it will be, is a guess. Where I do that I explain where I come up with it. Where people disagree most of the time they don't explain why. See bowtieollies question as to why he's seen more 305 hp's than 350 hp, and my answer.

 

[Fran Preve]

Ollie: just read your resume, you want to see what I got?. Come to Super Chevy Maple Grove, and bring your friend. And have HIM bring some, we'll compare notes.

 

[Bungy]

Phil, Now you can say you've seen two 61 blocks with all raised casting numbers. You'll have to scroll down to Nut's picture.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1883&page=3&pp=15

 

[bowtieollie]

Ollie: I don't RAM anything down ANYONES throat, but when someone says something I know to be incorrect I'll shoot my mouth off, take it for what it's worth. As far as your comment "you know someone...........", well tell him to spread his information around, clue us in, tell us his history, where he got his information. Everything I'VE said is documented, and I EXPLAIN why I feel as I do, why things were as they were. You say "I know someone..........". But "he doesn't want to..............." . Tell him I'll match him document for document, any time.

.

Ya know Fran - you really give me a good laugh!

You are so full of yourself - I find it entertaining. First you tell me how "out of line" I am after I bring a large discrepancy to your attention - then you admit....

"...Your right, I'm wrong and I stand corrected..." :stooges

in a reply to Phil Reed's excellent, in my hands info.

I don't brag and I certainly don't use my opinion as a basis of fact. Amazing how the tune is changed from "I got this" to "all those guys are gone or retired"....

No need for a reply - I am finished with this thread.

 

[Fran Preve]

Don't read this, your profile makes it sound like your a really knowledgeable guy, but your comments aren't backed up by where you get your facts from, just the typical " I heard". If you have a problem with what I say, ask me where I get my information from, if you want to correct me state your correction, then tell me where YOU get YOUR facts from. By the way, if Phil Reed corrects me I can respect his knowledge, if you disagree...........well profiles don't mean much to me. I don't need to be torn down by someone who can't back up his knowledge, or where he gets his info from. Like I said, I'll be at the Grove in July, and I'll bring my records there. Bring yourself and your "hidden' friends, and yours and/or their records, we'll compare notes. I'll post this challenge in July for anyone in the PA area who wants accurate information, or just go at it.

 

[bowtieollie]

Sorry Fran,

I don't frequent Super Chevy events.

In my opinion its a marketing gimmick and they charge way too much for the results offered.

I don't need to qualify who I am and what I know. I just state the facts - and if I don't know - I can admit that too. No doubt that trait comes from my engineering background.

 

[MK IISS]

Ollie:

Isn't it true that a large number of the '61 SS cars built were ordered by dealers as a marketing tool? That is they were displayed in showrooms to bring customers into the dearlerships. I find it hard to believe that many dealers would have ordered them with solid lifter engines. Most of the 340-350 horse 348s and the first 409s I know of were special ordered by customers and not for dealer inventory.

I also believe that most of the customers who ordered the maximum horsepower engines were not padded dash, power steering, power brakes "kind of guys."

In my opinion it is a strong possibility that a large percentage of the '61 SS cars built were probably 305 horse 348s.

As far as I'm concerned, Ollie, you will never have to prove any of your "credentials", information or knowledge to me.

Richard

 

[bowtieollie]

HI Richard,

Car dealers are a funny breed. Some could care less about performance cars - and others like to specialize in them.

No doubt a market driven issue, factored by the dealer's commitment to sell, sell, sell.

During this time frame, we can all remember the cliche "race on Sunday, sell on Monday". It did happen - and that's why the mfg's backed racing either openly or discretely as with the 409 cars.

The 409 was intro'd prior to the SS intro. So you can have a 409 in a non SS car.
I believe most of the drag cars were original 348 cars - and the dealer "sold them" the engine over the parts counter - unless GM provided to the well known names.

The '61 SS was one expensive Chevy - and no doubt that is what most likely caused the small sales numbers at first. Anyone buying a '61 SS was a serious Chevrolet enthusiast or really wanted the Corvette - but needed four seats.

One only has to look at the SS option list for the '62 to see that Chevrolet mgt was disappointed with the results of the '61 package. Remember the old GM marketing tool? Sell them a Chevy first, then as your became more successful you would move up to a Pontiac, then Olds, and of course we remember the Buick being referred to as the Doctor's car - and ultimately Caddy.

(geez, wonder if GM could learn today from their old marketing plan considering no one today in marketing is a "car guy" - they all came from various backgrounds - much to the demise of GM car sales)

Fran mentions the fact that if you "didn't want to shift" you were stuck with the 305hp version. I can't recall what the mix of stick to auto trans were in those days - but it must have been worthwhile - since even Oldsmobile offered a stick shift in their full size cars. Then factor in geography - most sticks are sold in the Mid west. (today, sticks account for less than 5% of the total sales of a model)

I agree with you that most guys ordering max HP engines could care less about wheelcovers and padded dashes - but the '61 SS required these to get the SS option.

I also agree with you that the majority of the SS' built in '61 were not of the high hp version - the larger percentage would have been the 305. What I am not certain of is "why"? Was it production driven - only so many engines to bolt under the hood? Was it buyer concern for a "new engine" - how reliable will it be? (remember when the '55 265 was intro'd? Quite a few buyers were afraid of it and its unproven reliability history.)

I enjoy this board due to its dedication of the 348-409 engines - that's why I frequently stop by. Chevytalk is also my favorite. I try to lend a hand when I can - but I really don't care for namecalling or trying to prove who has the most horsepower. That's not what this site is about - we all help each other.

LOL - can you imagine if this was a local club and we all got to hang out together a few times a month?? Now that would be really interesting!

 

[Fran Preve]

Ollie: I believe you just restated what I already said, thanks for repeating me. I don't go to Super Chevy to see the pretty cars, evidently from the size and popularity it's a pretty good marketing tool!. And a place for REAL car guys to buy parts, great manufacturing midway and swap meet by the way. But then your an engineer. I go to Super Chevy to race, my "thing", but then you wouldn't know anything about that either. Like your "buddy' who has information but doesn't want to share it with others. If you weren't a small potato at NCOA you could ask the Team Leader for 1970-72 LT-1's who I am, he might know, Terry McManmon.

As far as sticks being popular, back in the early 60's sticks were still popular, the number of 3 speeds or speeds with OD sold tell the story, after the 3 speed automatic came out in the full size car 3 speeds became less popular, morre and more less popular, but that's more because buyers tastes changed. But as I said, and MKII said, the SS was expensive and sold to people willing to spend a premium, and they prefered automatics. But then I've already said all that.

Your comments about Super Chevy said a lot, I bracket race. Oh, as your a moderator over at Chevy talk maybe I should stop by just to kep you honest.

 

[bowtieollie]

Fran,

You continue to prove, not only to me, but to others on this site that your ego is out of control.

Go surround yourself with your opinions. I don't name drop as I respect my friends, coworkers, and associates in the business.

I stated I was done with this - but you continue to tease the lion.

Let me restate this.... I DON"T NEED TO PROVE WHO I AM AND WHAT I KNOW!

All future posts will be ignored by me - so rant and rave, toot your horn, pound your chest..... Oh, and thank you for the entertainment factor - that's the only thing these messages have done for others.

If you visit Chevytalk - be prepared. If anything starts that I deem unacceptable your posts will be censored.

 

[MK IISS]

'61 Ss

Fran:

What you said: "the SS was expensive and sold to people willing to spend a premium, and they preferred automatics."

I can't agree with the automatic transmission part. Although a powerglide was available with the base SS engine to my knowledge I don't think anyone has ever seen a powerglide '61 SS, I don't believe any were built. I think it is also reasonable to assume powergliide SSs would have had the highest survival rate because it is more unlikely they would have been raced.

Richard

 

[MK IISS]

I just found an interesting '61 performance comparison between a 348/350 and a 409/360. Almost identical showroom stock white Impalas, (the 409 had the SS pkg.) both cars with 4.56 gears.

409

0-30 3.2
0-45 4.8
0-60 7.0
1/4 mile 14.02 @98.14

348

0-30 3.0
0-45 5.2
0-60 8.0
1/4 mile 15.8 @91

Richard

 

[bowtieollie]

Hi Richard,

Now there are some interesting numbers!


Looks like the 409 has a better top end - so much for the cfm differences between the 3x2 and single AFB.

After seeing that - I can't wait to go out and find a date correct '61 09 engine and sell my 348/350.....

Thanks for posting that Richard.

 

[MK IISS]

the road tests are reprints in a Brooklands Books IMPALA & SS MUSCLE PORTFOLIO ISBN # 1 85520 3545

There are many other interesting tests including the unheard of 230 horsepower 4bbl 327 low compression export & police engine.

In 1961 my Uncle sold a new 409 engine in the crate to a friend of mine who had a '59 Impala 348/335 car which he had purchased new. I drove the car once and rode in it several times. It was very fast. My friend told me he had tried the 3X2bbls from the 348 on the 409 but it seemed to have more power with the big AFB. Maybe chevy knew what it was doing when they never offered the 3X2s on the 409.

On the other hand I drove some 348/280 cars and they seemed faster then the 348/250s especially with the automatics when you had no passing gear after about 55MPH. The turboglide 348/280 would fool you. Ther was no abrupt kickdown but the kept on "pulling."

By the way the valve covers on the three new '61 409s I saw were a light argent/silver color. They didn't have any stinkin' greenish color to them. Maybe they turned color with age and heat and maybe the 62's had the greenish cast to them when they were new ( I just don't remember on the '62s ) but the '61s I saw were light silver. The '61s also didn't have any decals on the covers either.

 

[bowtieollie]

Interesting history Richard.

The silver/green silver argument always comes up at points shows. Sorta like the painted scripts on 55 V8s. Restoration guides were written and the myth is perpetuated.

I have found the same observation on several 348 250/280 cars. Especially with the Turboglide. Some swear they were slow - but several that I have driven have been rather impressive - say 1980 Z28 impressive - not bad for an 'ol girl.

I really think those that "seemed to be" poor performers most likely had poor throttle valve linkage adjustments - and the stator angle was off.

When I bought my 348/350 it was converted to mechanical linkage. Ran like a scalded cat - but fairly miserable when cold - since the linkage was screwed up.
I converted it back to original (darn points again) and the car turned into a pussy cat. Well, at least I won't do any driveline damage. LOL

 

[real61ss]

Interesting history Richard.


When I bought my 348/350 it was converted to mechanical linkage. Ran like a scalded cat - but fairly miserable when cold - since the linkage was screwed up.
I converted it back to original (darn points again) and the car turned into a pussy cat. Well, at least I won't do any driveline damage. LOL

Ollie,
Do your end carbs cut in using the vacuum?, if they do, there shouldn't be any difference in the power. They are either closed or wide open using the factory linkage. I've never been able to get mine to cut in, I guess the return springs on the carbs are too strong, vacuum shouldn't be problem on mine, it's a 280 hp.