It's Summer - Nuts must be overheating !!!!

[Nuts]

Okay, new summer, same old problem !!!!

Friday I tried to do a parade with the club. By the time I got down the staging lane and lined up with the goup, I was already at 220* !!!! I tried opening the hood a little, but that didn't help. So on Saturday I tried something new !

I installed a seven blade fan that Tic60 (thanks ) had given me last summer, after installing a new fan clutch on it. That seemed to help some, but it was only about 65-70* at the time. Then I tried to duplicate what Dave had done to get his running cool, minus the electric fan. I installed the heavy silver springs in the MSD distributor to adjust the timing curve to all in at 3500 rmp. When I took the car for a drive it was hotter than before and even at 65-70 mph, it didn't cool down ?

On Sunday, we had the annual "Father's Day" shown in down town Boise, She held temp pretty good, driving tp town on the freeway, but it was only 60* at the time. While setting in line, waiting to get parked the temps started to climb again, so I opened the hood, since I wasn't going anywhere fast anyway. The temps went to 190* and just stayed there, but again it was only about 60* at the time.

I know this is an "OLD" story, but damn I'd sure like to get it fixed before the big Motorfest show in three weeks.

Dave (petepeddler) if you have any thoughts, please feel free. Brian, what radiator are you running ? Anyone else who has optioins for me, please don't hesitate !!!!

Bill

 

[petepedlar]

Bill,
When I talked to the Tech guy at Be Cool he told me that at an idle the most you will get through the rad is 900 CFM of air......... MAX !!....... that's with the most aggressive mechanical fan you can find......... if it runs down the freeway and holds a constant temperature then the rad is working. At an idle there is just not enough air going through the rad..........

On my engine what he said was true.......... with the 33 - 3400 CFM electric fan at an idle and the engine will sit and idle all day long. I'm sure that thing will hold an average size phone book up against the rad...........

The timing & springs that I changed on mine were car specific I believe. I was trying to run the car at 65 - 75 MPH at 180-190* under a load with the timing fully advanced at the 2500 RPM I was turning..........

I would rather have the stock looking mechanical fan............ but the electric one does work.

Having said this, for anyone who is buying a new rad.......... get the biggest sucker you can.

Dave

 

[Nuts]

Dave,

What is your initial advance setting and are you running a vacumm advance ? If so which side of the carburator are you plugged into ? I'm not currently using the vacumm advance, but would like to.

I have a big electric fan I can put on there, I just don't really like them, but I'm really tired of this overheating !!!!!! Last time I had it on, I beleve I also had the mechanical mounted and the two together didn't work well at all !

Bill

 

[petepedlar]

Bill, if I remember I have 13* initial..... which should give me 34* (with the blue stopper in the MSD) all in at about 3500 - 3600 RPM. If you were racing it you should have more timing but it sure seems happy going down the freeway. I do have the vacuum advance working off of ported vacuum so at an idle it's not doing anything. At 23 - 2400 RPM cruise speed that's an extra 10*

total at 23 - 2400 RPM cruise is 44* if it's at full vacuum............... sorry the mechanical isn't all in at 2400 anymore......... according to the MSD chart it's at about 12* at 2400............. so 13 + 12 + 10 = 35* at cruise if she has full vacuum............

Big doesn't necessarly mean good when it comes to electric fans....... I had a choice of a 2800 CFM or a 3400 CFM fan from Be Cool and they were the same size.......... it also depends on the shape of the blades. From what I have learned there is a huge difference in aftermarket fans.............. and as I said before I would much rather have the stock look...... but the electric fan I have does the job.

I don't have room for the mechanical fan and the electric.

Dave

 

[58 Apache]

well well I like that

I have not driven a 409 powered car a lot so I don't know the engines little bugs and I really didn't understand the obsession with tempatures. I have racing engines running 200/210 all the time and street engines at 195 so I had a hard time catching on to this until just now about temp run away. I also had some problems understanding timing you guys are using to control temps. Dave you cracked the case for me thank you for your post it turned the light on for me with what you guys are going thru and now maybe I can be of some help.

 

[JimKwiatkowski]

Dave we talked about the mechanical fan a day before the shootout. I run a Griffin crossflow, with two 1 1/4" tubes and an air tight shroud that I made, I run a 17" flex fan, a 5 1/4" water pump pulley and no stat. On hot days I run 175 to 180 deg on Freeways and 190 in the city. Here's a link to a 5 1/4" March pulley I use, but with 2 groves. Why don't you or Bill give the pulley a try all you have to lose is the price of the pulley $100.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCH-1633/

This is the flex fan I use.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-1317/

 

[Nuts]

Dave,

Two more questions ?

Do you have an A/C condenser in front of the radiator ? I know mine is blocking alot of air through the radiator ? I don't run it in town, but it's still out there blocking the air flow.

I know I've been told this before, but which side of the carburator is "Ported" as you look from the front of the car ?

Bill

 

[Swiss Impala]

May be you say this Swiss has no idea about these things, but in
all your posts about overheating I never read that you make a difference between cars with manual or auto trans. What I learned with all our cars
in all the years that there is a big difference. Same cars with auto trans tend
more toward overheating than the same cars with a manual trans.
Auto transmissions produce a lot of heat that has to be cooled down with
the radiator. I had both kinds of Corvettes (C3) and those with manual trans
run cooler in stop and go and in the mountains (and we have a lot of mountains here ) than those with automatic.
With the Impala I had the problem with the hot light too, but it was only the
sending unit.

 

[oldskydog]

Are you boiling over or just don't like the high temp readings? My 2003 truck runs 205 deg all day at 2000 rpm on the highway at 65. 210-220 is not out of the question for operating temps. Keep in mind that a 15 psi pressurized system raises the boiling temp to about 265 deg. That provides a pretty good cushion of 45 degs at 220.
If you have verified your temp with an IR gun, it's got a good 15 psi cap and it's not puking, I wouldn't be too concerned.
BTW, different fans are more than just number of blades and diameter. They also have different pitch which affects airflow....too flat a pitch and it's like running in low gear. At highway speeds , a flat pitch fan effectively acts like a solid disc blocking airflow and trying to drag the engine down..
JMHO:

 

[JimKwiatkowski]

Lower radiator hose

Check your lower radiator hose for a spring. Scott Hall mentioned in another thread that his lower radiator was collapsing without out a spring, causing a restriction in his coolant flow

 

[JimKwiatkowski]

New Radiator

Bill, you had the same problem last year, what radiator do you have? IMO you need to start over and buy a new radiator. I would buy a radiator like Brian Thompson's or Scott Hall's, both Good choices. Here's the link you subscribe to already.

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20492

 

[threeimpalas]

...Do you have an A/C condenser in front of the radiator ? I know mine is blocking alot of air through the radiator ? I don't run it in town, but it's still out there blocking the air flow...

Before you go buy a new radiator, I'd try disconnecting the A/C system and removing the condenser to see if you still overheat with it out of the way. Yeah, you'll have to recharge the system upon re-install, but it'd be cheaper than buying a new radiator when your current one might be more than adequate.

 

[jdk971]

make sure your gauges are correct. i have seen gauges read hotter than what the
real temp is. my autometer gauge with the bulb sensor reads 200. i have 3 infra
guns and they read 183 to 190. jim

 

[sam 15]

Anyone else who has optioins for me, please don't hesitate !!!!

Bill

I had the same problem....driving speeds ran great, stop light I could watch the temp go up....longer the light the higher the temp went. The hot rod shop suggested installing a dual electric fan setup (behind the radiator). My wagon was not stock when I bought it and I'm not planning on returning it to stock so that's what I did. I also have an aftermarket 3 row radiator. If you're keeping the stock look, I would suggest installing an electric (pusher) fan in front of the radiator. That way you can keep the stock look. You can find them pretty reasonably priced and in different sizes and CFM. Hook it up to a remote on/off switch so you can turn it on when you need it. I would also add a relay switch. I would also suggest if you can, listen to the fan before you buy it to see how loud it is. Mine are made by Spal and are louder than I like, but they keep the engine running cool. I'm in the Cali desert...so far this summer the engine temp has only gotten to 190* max. If you don't like the looks of the electric fan in front, you could get creative and make it removeable (quick change so to speak) so when at the car shows and cruise nights and want to show off the engine compartment it can be easily removed.

 

[Brian Thompson]

Bill-

You're not alone on the high temp thing. After overheating last year, my 62 now has a Custom made Ron Davis crossflow radiator with dual 1 1/4' tubes (Forgot the size of the core, but it is about 1/2' larger than the opening in the radiator support), a dual 11" BeCool electric fan kit, a Spal FAN-PWM-V3 Programmable Electric Fan Controller and I removed the A/C condensor . I have a 7" crank pulley, 6 1/4" waterpump pulley, no thermostat, an Edelbrock waterpump and no anti-freeze(water with 3 bottles of Water Wetter). I haven't had it out this year since the temps have gone over 100*, but when I drove it to Texas Motor Speedway last month, the outside temps were in the 90's and my car ran 165* the whole way on the highway. I guess I need to put in a thermostat to get the temps up on the highway. With this said, If I just drive it around locally within the neighborhood or to the store, the temps rise to about 200* - 210*. I have yet to put it in stop and go traffic though. Kinda nervous to do that right now, but I am sure I will get stuck in it sooner or later this year. I have too many projects going on to play with it right now. Don't want to open up another can of worms just yet.

Also, My father-in-laws 62 has the Griffin downflow radiator with the steering box cut-out in the lower tank, 7" crank pulley, 6 1/4" water pump pulley and a replacement cast iron waterpump. I hope it will keep his engine cool. I noticed that this radiator has a shorter core size than the Griffin downflow without the cut-out.

 

[petepedlar]

Why don't you or Bill give the pulley a try

Jim, thanks for the info on the pulley part number. I'll check the belt spacing to be sure it's the same as mine and I'll order one.

Bill...... I don't have air cond, but I have a large transmission cooler in front of the rad, it probably covers 1/2 of the rad. I'm going to remove it as well in favour of one of the tubular fined ones that I can mount under somewhere. The rad has a transmission cooler built in........ meaning it is an automatic rad..... so the additional cooler is probably not required.........

With your A/C condensor in front it definately will cut the air flow through the rad.

Dave

 

[Nuts]

Thanks again - Everyone !

Okay, I'm going to attempt to answer and address some of the comments !

Bill, you had the same problem last year, what radiator do you have?

Jim,

Yes this has been an on going problem, since I put the 409 in the car. I have a new radiator (last year), the alluminum one from Show Cars. I believe it is more than enough radiator to keep the car cool, if I can figure out the air flow issue ? She runs cool at highway speeds even with the A/C on.

Check your lower radiator hose for a spring. Scott Hall mentioned in another thread that his lower radiator was collapsing without out a spring, causing a restriction in his coolant flow

I have checked this, but will check again tonight. Lots of things get past me, just ask Linda !!!!

Are you boiling over or just don't like the high temp readings?

She never has boiled over, but when the temps get to 220* I start looking for a place to shut down. When I had an electric fan running with the mechanical it would cool her down in a couple of minutes and I was off again.

I'm pretty sure the issue is air flow ??? Until I missed with the advance curve (now adjusted back), she ran cool on the highway even with A/C, but would gather heat quickly at idle. I think there are two things working against me.

As Dave said "Mechanical will only move 900 cfm !", my mechanical fan is not moving enough air. It will hold a shop towel on but you can hardly feel any air moving through the radiator from the front side.

The other issue is where does the heat go ???? If I raise the hood up or have it open, she doesn't go above 190-200* most of the time. So even if I get enough air moving through the radiator, how do I evacuate from the engine compartment ?

Well, I'd better quit typing or no one will read the whole thing.

Bill

 

[Brian Thompson]

The other issue is where does the heat go ???? Bill

Bill-

That is the question!

 

[bigblockwilly]

I had a simmiler problem on my 64. I was not getting enough air flow throught the rediator then i noticed that on the bottem of the hood between where the core support and the grill was there was 2 big hols that would allow air to buypass the ratiator. I created a shroud in front of the core support to the grill and it solved my cooling issues and it looks good to. JMHO hope your problmes get sloved
Willy

 

[Swiss Impala]

I do really not understand what problems you have.
American cars have a bad reputation here. Everyboby thinks that they
are not so good. Especially they think that they always overheat.
This is not true. With the K3500 automatic(454) and the K5 Blazer automatic (350) I tow heavy
trailers. Never had a problem. Both have all this factory heavy duty
equipment. They work well even on steep mountain roads with trailers.
The Impala has since many years a 283. The 409 is still waiting.
Should it be better to let the 283 inside:eek:? I can't imagine.
We never had problems of this kind with the Impala.
As I said I think it is a matter of manual or automatic, also size of radiator,
and how fast the water goes through the radiator. If it goes to fast,
it can not get rid of the heat when it goes through the radiator.
An auxiliary trans oil cooler can help but only in connection with an
electric fan. The K3500 has no special trans oil cooler but on the part
of the radiator where the trans oil lines go through it is an auxiliary
electric fan mounted (factory). I think it helps a lot to reduce heat.

Franz