Painting the 58

[tripowerguy]

I think that I'm going to make a copy of Tom's bubble top and look at it when I get discouraged with my project.
Wrench I know how you feel about coming up with the money. When you're retired the living exspenses are the same but the income is cut so when I can come up with a way of making a few extra bucks I jump at the chance. But you can work a month at odd jobs and you make a 1000 bucks extra. That just evaporates like steam into one of these cars. But we are really fortunate to have one in any condition because every time I take the car out there is someone who looks in envy and wishes that he or she had one also. I hope that you can make it to the convention in September, I know that it is going to be worth the effort. Roy

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Pics and such

Wrench: I have been taking lots of photos of the disassembly. I will post a few when I get my other PC back on the local (home) network (having a few technical difficulties, and that one's apart on the floor right now...).

Roy: Others have told me that I should have just shelled out the cash to buy a decent rust free '62 Bel Air, but since I figured I was going to take it apart anyway, why not start with a challenging one? Most people would have left this one for dead, as it wasn't an original 409 car. It was a 283 or a 327 with a PG. The key is the car was made in St. Louis (just down the road from me) and it's color codes are Black over Red. I just love black over red, and I love the look of the Bubbletop. And they get better with 409s and four speeds !!!

I must admit, after taking apart crusty cars and rust free cars, I much prefer the latter Taking my '62 California car apart was a breeze, and even the bumper bolts look as good as when new.

How much will I spend? Hell, I don't know! I do keep track of each penny (but not my time) and while I will never share this with my lovely bride, I would share it with you guys. I'm guessing the SS will cost me around $20K (including purchase price) and the Bubbletop a bit more. I'm not doing a totally anal job, more of an amateur job for a guy with too much time on his hands. And I am looking for sponsors in $5K increments Since these are keepers (as in "Not for Sale", not in my lifetime), I am trying to pretend that money isn't the issue. Time isn't either, except that I want one done to drive to KC next September

Cheers,
TomK

 

[jim_ss409]

Tom. It looks like you've got alot of work ahead of you but there will be alot of satisfaction in knowing that you might have saved a bubbletop from a trip to the crusher. The 62 I'm working on also needed quite a bit of work but it's starting to come together now. Unlike you I don't want to know how much I've spent. I'm doing my own body work and I'm pretty sure I've spent about a million dollars on filler alone. : Someone on this site once said that it's best to just tackle one job at a time and not let the size of the whole project get you down. That's been working for me so far. I do wish I'd have taken more pictures along the way though. Good luck.

 

[tripowerguy]

I needed a little therapy so I went out to the garage and started grinding on the paint. I'm trying not to get to metal but some places I can't help it. So I'm wondering if I need to prime these spots right away, because this primer is a catalyst type and I don't want to mix up more than I can use. Man, my poor baby looks like it caught the mange or something. I sure hope that I know what I'm doing.:eek: Roy

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

A little inspiration for Roy

Roy, here' s a pic I took just today. I completed the underside with red oxide primer, did the X frame chassis black, and removed the remainder of the interior along with the front and rear glass.
Cleaning that sticky black nasty stuff around the window seal was less than fun, but it was sunny and 32 degrees out.

Tomorrow morning she gets loaded on the trailer and takes a ride to the paint shop about 20 miles away. He's got the front clip done, now he gets the body. I get to do all those little semi-gloss black parts no one ever sees

Here's that shot:

Cheers,
TomK

 

[tripowerguy]

Tom I noticed that your firewall is body color. When did Chevrolet start painting the firewall black? My 64 had a black firewall. My 58 is body color. : Roy

 

[bobs409]

Roy,

Sometime in '63 depending on the plant. Canadian cars were body color though.

My '63 has a black firewall and was built at Baltimore, MD.

 

[SS425HP]

Firewall color

Mine has a black firewall, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred

 

[Phil Reed]

REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred......of course your 63 has a black firewall.......

IT'S A BLACK CAR!!!!!!!

You and Verna being goin' to Appleby's too much lately!!!!!!

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Trip to the paint booth

Here's shot of us with the '62SS body on frame, all loaded up and ready to take to the paint shop. We just finished all the prep work so we could roll her on into the paint booth and finish the stripping and then get her recoated in Ermine White.

Note what direction we are headed. What's that sign say on that establishment in the background???

Cheers,
TomK

 

[59fins]

Tripower, in the long run you will save time and money stripping the car, you have 3 coats of paint, your are trying to get to the base coat, you will spend alot more time trying to do so.

Plus if you have some areas of bare metal and some areas that you only got to the second coat, you will have what is called lillie pads, uneven surface, and the time you will take to try and correct this not worth it, bare metal sounds intimadating but you start fresh, knowing you won't have any surprises when when you paint your top coats, the top coat will shrink over a period of time and usually any thing that was left behind (old Paint) will show up (feather edges).

Now this is not allways the way to go, but IMHO if you are trying to cut 2-3 old coats of paint down without hitting bare metal you will have many surprises later on.

Paint and materials are very expensive so you want to use as little as possible except were it counts, cause a redo just blew the budget.

usually you want to get primer on bare metal as soon as possible
however if your shop is heated, that will buy you time, strip a quarter and prime it, strip a door and prime it, with a product that is made to go over bare metals, ie 2k products, primers with hardners. .... ALLWAYS wear a mask, even when sanding

just my 2 cents

 

[tripowerguy]

My garage is heated and I always wear a mask. I already have lung problems so I don't need to exacerbate the problem. [ That ought to get a comment.] I guess that I was trying to keep from having any rust by not going all the way to metal. Also I heard that you needed to etch the metal before priming it. This 2k primer is not supposed to be to good for the health if it is inhaled. I am going to wear a respirator when I spray the primer and paint. I guess I'll keep grinding. Right now I'm only working on the right front fender. so far I have only hit one small piece of bondo, I ground it out to bare metal because I wanted to see what was under it. It was a small dimple I think I can get it out with a hammer and dolly. I don't know why they put bondo in it. Thanks for the comment and keep after me so I don't go down the wrong road. Roy

 

[tripowerguy]

AAARRRGH! I 'm glad in a way that I went all the way to metal but I found a spot of cancer in the left front fender that someone had bondoed over. I've had the car for 8 years and it never came to the surface. I'm glad that I've got a body man looking over my shoulder. He cut out and welded a new piece in and that seems to be the only place that is bad. Also I'm trying to get all my body seams to be uniform and I can't seem to get the right front fender to line up . I have pushed the fender out at the grill brace and when I try to bring the seam back in at the radiator support it starts coming in at the grill brace again. Has anyone had experience adjusting body panels that might give me some advice?: Roy

 

[59fins]

Assuming your Seams means body lines ( b/l ) you want to make sure that your doors in the alignment you want first, that the bottom of the door is even with the rocker then the back edge is even with the qtr panel, the wing vent can be adjusted after the door fits the hole, ALLways adjust at the hinges, then make the striker hold the door in or out only, the striker is not made to adjust up or down just in or out at the rear of the door.

Now with that said, you are happy with the alignment of the door, it shuts pretty good (if you installed new weather strips it will shut harder, if not it should shut with ease).

Now the fender... loosly put the bolt in at the rad supt, the one at the cowl, (just ahead of the vent panel close to the hinge)
then put the bolt in down at the rocker that holds the bottom of the fender .
any fender liner bolts that are holding the fender liner to the body make sure are overly loose, now the fender should move any direction with ease.

Start with the bolt at the cowl, our first objective is to get the fender to door line close, shim the fender at the cowl up if needed, slide in or out to fit the door how you like it, (at the same time hold the fender in or out at the bottom to see if you can achieve a good body line)
if you can hold the fender in place with the bolts in, use shims to achieve that b/l, top rear of fender and lower rear of fender.

at this point Assuming you have the hood on, and it is in alignment with the cowl panel do a ball park check with the hood,

Once the fender has a good body line at the door, snug those 2 rear bolts, none other

The hole that seems to always give me problems is the one under the door at the cowl, that is a whole different story, but if you have a bolt in there Loose of course leave it that way til the end. this hole sometime needs to be enlarged but if it came off that car you should be OK

The rad supt is the next place to look, if it was out, leave those bolts loose til the end also,(so they can float) they also my need to be shimmed.

now the same to the other fender, you can have all the bolts in just make sure they are loose real loose except the 2 rear ones mentioned abovewith the rad supt in place not tightened down, align the hood.

In theory the fenders are close especially at the rear, same deal with the doors, the latch or catch is not important at this time, is easier to remove them achive the alignment without the
latch it will fall into place later.

patients is the key, remember these are 40 year old cars and b/l's were not like todays cars, great lines can be achieved but takes patients.

With the hood, if it is high in the rear corner, the hinge either needs to come up in the front or down in the rear.

You want the front end to float till you have the b/l's you want
them slowly tighten things up, sometimes the fender needs a shim between the rad supt and the fender, my 59 needed some, but I m not sure the 58 is put together the same way, it may slide in of out.

Remember that the rad supt sometimes need to be shimmed at the frame and use the toad stools to adjust the height of the hood at each fender.

Now if the hood appears not wide enough, large body lines, you have to go all the way back to your doors.... are the doors flush with the rockers, out a little or do they need to come in further, that is why you need to study the door alignment first, cause if you go through all the above and find your hood gaps are too wide, you are starting over at the top of this post, if you pull the fenders in at the rear to achieve a hood lineyou ave just thrown the door to fender line off.

Sometimes you need to split the difference in and get it close

I hope this make sence, if not email me, if so good luck, it is not really that hard, just time consuming

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Roy:

In addition here is a cut-n-paste posting from a senior member in the ChevyTalk forum, an expert on Paint and Body work, MartinSR.
This goes beyond panel fitting to include other components.

He (MartiSR is his ChevyTalk name) also posts several "papers" on various subjects, one of which is "The Basics of Panel Fitting", which would augment 59fins' excellent description. Couldn't locate it online (have print version), but will search within ChevyTalk for the link

The link for the post below was:

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/sh...&Old=1year&Main=655926&Search=true#Post655926

Cheers,
TomK




Trial fitting parts is time VERY well spent.
#655926 - 12/07/03 10:07 AM

There is no amount of money you can throw at a car that can make up for poor detailing. Good detailing AS you build will give you a much better finished product than any custom work or parts bolted on. I have started a whole "Basics of Basics" of detailing, but until that is done, this is a good start. Trial fitting parts is the basis of detailing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Trial fitting parts

There are few procedures that give you more 'Bang for your buck" than trial fitting parts. Sounds simple, just common sense. However, it is something that comes with very hard learned lessons. Even after doing this work for over twenty five years, I still forget once and a while. When I do, there is a good chance I will pay for it dearly.

Like the fabricators motto "If you don't have a pile of rejects in the trash, you aren't doing good work", the time spent on trial fitting is VERY good time spent.

This trial fitting should include nearly every single part of the car.

When installing a weld on part such as a quarter, trial fitting ALL the adjacent panels is not just something you "should" do, you MUST do it. The decklid, door, rear bumper, window mouldings, etc, should ALL installed and fit well BEFORE your welding is done. At this time a little minor tuning can turn an "OK" job into an outstanding one. You may even find the need to serious adjustment.

Trial fitting is not holding the part up and saying "yep it fits". We are talking FULLY bolting the part on. If this is a moving part such as a door or deck lid, the latch should be installed, hinges FULLY bolted on and adjusted. The rubber seals and bumpers should be installed as well. On an older car this is not so easy because many are glued in, but SOMETHING has to be done to insure the part will fit properly when the rubber is installed later.

If you can't install the rubber at that time at least spend some time looking at where the rubber fits to for a proper gap. For instance, while fitting a decklid to your new quarter (or the other way around, it makes no difference) get in the trunk and close the lid. Inspect around the channel where the rubber fits. Be sure it is a uniform distance ALL the way around. You can usually find the correct distance right where the hinges are. If the panel fits correctly on the outside then that gap for the rubber is usually going to be correct. If you feel for some reason that there is damage to that area, you need to spend some time there. If you feel the car has been hit on the side piller post (if you were fitting the door) you really need insure that the door fits properly and that you KNOW what that rubber gap should be. This gap is usually a uniform distance all the way around, be sure of it. When you are doing a door, you always have the other side to check to guidance remember. When installing a quarter, rear panel, upper panel, this is very critical. You don't want to find out later that your gap is too small, the lid won't close properly or sticks up. You don't want to find out the gap is too large, the rubber may not seal and the trunk leaks water. A little minor shifting of parts prior to welding could take care of it.
You want ALL gaps perfect PRIOR to welding (a little tack here or there may be needed for fitting the parts) there is NOTHING that will tell you this other than FULLY mounting the adjacent parts.

Mouldings:
When doing any plastic filler work ("bondo") or straightening metal you need to trail fit the mouldings, trim and adjacent parts as well. This is VERY important with parts like fender extensions. I don't care if they are new/used or the even the same ones you took off the car, AWAYS trial fit them. Don't leave you new repro parts in the package to install them after paint, you WILL be sorry.

Prior to paint or even primer you can "tweek" these mouldings against the body. After paint, it is much harder because you can scratch it. If there is plastic filler work or metal being straightened this is VERY important. After you have drilled holes for mouldings (Basics of Basics-Templates) bolt the mouldings on for fit.

The cars weight should be on the "wheels" when making these panel adjustments. NEVER fit panels while the car is on jack stands on the frame or on a rotisserie for something like that. You can have the car on jack stands but be sure they are under the rear axle and front control arms to "replicate" the forces of the car on it's wheels. I don't even like the under the control arms at all, I put the car on it's front wheels. The weight transfer is not the same in the middle of the control arms as it is at the point where the tire hits the ground.

I can not stress this enough, trial fitting parts is not because you are a newbe or something. Every experienced body man does it everyday to some degree. Trial fitting is done throughout the entire repair of the car. Nothing could be worse than getting your car back from the painter only to find parts don't fit!
Just yesterday I was working on 2002 Honda CR-V with a little dent on the quarter right at the edge by the rear gate. I had finished the plastic filler work and was ready to send it to the paint department. I went ahead and installed the new decklid just to be sure it was right, even though this was a very minor repair that should easily be fine. I found out I was a little on the filler work. Now, it wasn't the end of the world and could have even stayed that way. But with literally only a few minutes, it was perfect. On a very large job lately I found the need to pull the car back up on the frame rack for a little minor repair to where the rubber fits or the door would have been MUCH too tight. Just this little fine tuning made a world of difference to how the door fit.

The moral of the story is don't ever "assume" your parts are going to fit. I don't give a darn if they are new, repro, NOS, original, it really doesn't matter, they MUST be trial fit.

The final assembly of your car should be fun, and relaxing. It is the best part of the whole project. Don't make it a nightmare, don't let someone rush you during the earlier phases of the project. Right from the very beginning you are laying the foundation for the finished project. Take the time to do it right.
If you trial fit the parts properly you will never know the pain you saved yourself, but believe me, it was time very well spent.

--------------------
Fan of everything that moves human beings.

 

[tripowerguy]

Thanks guys, I can see that I've been going at this from the wrong end. I started at the front of the car and was trying to work my way back. I need to start at the door. I went out and started looking at the doors real close and I can see were there is a lot of aligning that is going to have to be done. After that I need to start on the fender. I'm going to print both of these so I can take them out to the garage for reference. Once again this club has saved my bacon, I don't know how I could ever thank the members for all the help I've received but anyway, THANKS ! Roy

 

[TomO]

Roy - How about some photos? I would really like to see your car.
TomO

 

[tripowerguy]

Well Tom I have tried 2 times to put pictures and to paraphrase my neighbor, Marie, I can't get the Bloody thing to go small enough. Marie, pronounced Mawrie, is from Australia and every thing is bloody this and bloody that. Anyway I will keep working at getting the size down. I hate this Kodak camera because they try to control you so you have to use their services. Now to something I found on the roof of the 58. Little cracks in the paint, when you take them to metal, rust spots. So if you have cracks in your paint there is a good chance there is rust under there. :eek: Roy

 

[59fins]

Usually if you have cracks, it is too thick of paint, poor adhesion of the paint to the metal, poor preperation of the last guy that painted the car or rust, could be all of the above, another reason to take it all the way down to the bare metal, to see what you have, so there will not be (hopefully) any surprises later.
post your pics on www.webshots.com , it does not cost anything and you can add and delete pics as you wish, there is also places like www.picturetrail.com and www.cardomain.com, I do not know how to post pics here or adjust thier size

 

[348NUT]

Hey Roy. Plug away; I want to see that car at KC! I'm going about my 55 all wrong and I know it. : But I just don't have time to take the whole thing down and do it right. Now that it runs and drives, I'm going to scuff it, fill in the Big holes with fiberglass filler :eek: and spray it flat black Rustoleum. Now I know some of you are laughing, but I want to drive this thing while fixing it up. I plan to take one body panel down to bare metal as I have time and do it right. Then when the body is all fixed sand it down and paint the whole car. I know it will take more time in the long run but I want to drive this car! I've waited 20 years and can't wait any longer! See you at KC! NUT

p.s. To shrink my photos I use the "Paint" program that comes in most,all? computers nowadays. I right click on the photo, chose edit, then it pops up in Paint. Click "Image" then "stretch/skew". reset the size to 85% or so and save it under a different name. After playing for a while, you get the right size photos that fit the threads nicely. Good luck, NUT