:eek I know I don't want that in the back of my mind. There are other ways to get valve geometry right.
Race Engine project planning
- Thread starter 1961BelAir427
- Start date
:eek I know I don't want that in the back of my mind. There are other ways to get valve geometry right.
For my planned build would I be better off with a truck block with the notch to clear high lift? If I stick with the passenger block will I have to grind a notch into it? Thinking about this cam: 265*I/270*E dur@.050" - .680" (1.7:1) Lift 110* LSA - possibly with 1.8:1 rockers later which would give .720" gross lift.
From what I've seen HP blocks sell for I might be able to get a truck block and the machine work done plus it might help someone looking for certain numbers/date code.
From what I've seen HP blocks sell for I might be able to get a truck block and the machine work done plus it might help someone looking for certain numbers/date code.
So right now you're at 474(?) cubes, $7k for parts and machine work, and 5 females living with you.
Dude you're a hero if you pull this off for $7k, that's like SBC cheap. You've got my attention now 
For what it's worth-Steve Magnante built a very streetable 434 a year or two ago, think it was in Hot Rod. 348 block, 4" crank, 10.2:1, hydraulic flat tappet, box stock edelbrock heads, and made 485hp @ 5600....Wonder if head work, big compression, and a solid roller would get the same #'s as your 433 Rat, and maybe save the cost of an'09 block
Kevin
Dude you're a hero if you pull this off for $7k, that's like SBC cheap. You've got my attention now For what it's worth-Steve Magnante built a very streetable 434 a year or two ago, think it was in Hot Rod. 348 block, 4" crank, 10.2:1, hydraulic flat tappet, box stock edelbrock heads, and made 485hp @ 5600....Wonder if head work, big compression, and a solid roller would get the same #'s as your 433 Rat, and maybe save the cost of an'09 block
Kevin
That is PLUS piles of sbc/bbc parts that will interchange AND the edelbrock parts I recently got a package deal on, but I hope I can get this thing together.So right now you're at 474(?) cubes, $7k for parts and machine work, and 5 females living with you.
For what it's worth-Steve Magnante built a very streetable 434 a year or two ago, think it was in Hot Rod. 348 block, 4" crank, 10.2:1, hydraulic flat tappet, box stock edelbrock heads, and made 485hp @ 5600....Wonder if head work, big compression, and a solid roller would get the same #'s as your 433 Rat, and maybe save the cost of an'09 block
Joe Sherman built a 437" stroker 348 for Hot Rod magazine that made 650 HP with 11:1, a big roller, ported edelbrock heads and intake. It really made the power too because Jim & Jim ended up buying it and running it in the Phantom 409 '55 gasser. It went something like 10.10 @ 128 I think.
I actually just bumped an old thread about it a earlier tonight. I was away from the forum a few years and didn't know they had got the engine. EDIT: Also didn't know that Winston (pretty much our Forum mascot) had died-RIP in puppy heaven.
CDNpontiac409guy
Banned
I still think 409 block... .030" - .060", using a 3.766" stroke ( 366/ 396 / 427 ) crankshaft
about 450 CID. Just right for a pair of reasonably ported heads. Keep your spring installed height to at least 1.80". Spring cups are obviously required.
about 450 CID. Just right for a pair of reasonably ported heads. Keep your spring installed height to at least 1.80". Spring cups are obviously required.
I have a spare 427 forged crank or 2, so that's still a possibility. A 6.535" rod would fit with that stroke too for even less piston weight, but it would be pretty close to the 2nd ring @ 1.167" compression height. Cost would certainly go up too. Not sure either of those would be good. ??
I've got to go with more installed height than that. My springs coil bind is listed @ 1.150" . I figure with a .050" safety clearance and .720" max lift (not accounting for lash) I'll need at least 1.92" IH. Will depend on what the spring pressures and coil bind figures actually measure at though.
Theoretically: 1.900" IH of standard Edelbrock springs and +.035" IH valve locks = 1.935" IH, minus 1.150" Coil bind and .050" safety clearance = .735" max lift of the springs. Or .750" max if I use +.050" IH locks .
I've got to go with more installed height than that. My springs coil bind is listed @ 1.150" . I figure with a .050" safety clearance and .720" max lift (not accounting for lash) I'll need at least 1.92" IH. Will depend on what the spring pressures and coil bind figures actually measure at though.
Theoretically: 1.900" IH of standard Edelbrock springs and +.035" IH valve locks = 1.935" IH, minus 1.150" Coil bind and .050" safety clearance = .735" max lift of the springs. Or .750" max if I use +.050" IH locks .
I've listed several parts for sale as well a 64 Impala on here to try and help fund this build. Depending on how those go, I can hopefully get this thing in motion and out of the planning stage. Sold some LS1 style HP heads (used) today and using that money to order my roller lifters now.
I'll might get some EndureX lifters later down the road, but for now I'm going with the Herbert lifters. Part # specific for the 348/409 so they should be correct. I have ran their lifters in big blocks and never had a problem with them. I've ran the EndureX too and like the oil hole, but haven't seen any better life out of them than the Herberts. If it were going to see much street use or time spent at idle/low rpms then I'd definitely go that way. Those Isky EZ Rolls with no needle bearings are great. Also a big money awesome lifter I'd seen was from Shubeck and it didn't have a roller at all. I know they had the RollerX that I think had a bushing like the Iskys, but the ones I'm referring to were like a solid flat tappet lifter with a rounded base. They were supposedly made out of some space age material that didn't wear and was slick enough to just glide across roller lobes like a roller lifter with out the parts to break. I haven't ever seen anyone use them and can't find any info on them right now. They were well over $1000. They may have been a load of crap for all I know, but I know Shubeck was supposed to be one of the high end lifter companies.
Come to think of it, I could have just ordered some Comp Cams SBF link bars for about $40 and stuck them on my BBC EndureX lifters since that engine is apart for a refresh and I have other lifters I can put in it. IDK why I didn't think of that BEFORE buying the Herberts tonight. Fogot I had a spare set besides the Lunati Horizontal "spring-loaded" bbc ones I have. 
Comp cam # 838L link bars, maybe Lunati can cross reference.
Thanks Ronnie. Those are the Comp ones I was looking at for the Comp bbc lifters I have. I'd forgotten I have two spare sets of lifters I can use in the 427 that would have freed up the Comp lifters. The spare Lunati bbc lifters I have are the horizontal bar/spring loaded/pop-up style lifters. I doubt they make a link bar for those....and don't even think I'd want to run that style lifter in it anyway. I've passed over them a few times already for my big block builds...even though I have them. They are supposed to work fine, but I just have an uneasy feeling about the design.
Ahh....no wonder I hadn't found anything recent about them. I haven't heard anything bad about the Isky ones with the bushings instead of needle bearings....have you?
I've had experience with Herbert roller cams/lifters/springs, etc. in big blocks & friends with big blocks & small blocks. The exact same springs I have planned for this I've used in the past and a "friend" has been running in his 383 sbc with dart iron heads, over .660" lift, & N2O for several years. It's in a Studebaker truck. Doesn't show any sign of valve float or slowing down. He has had to replace head gaskets and a few pistons over the years though. What he gets for cheatin' (nitrous). LOL
I posted this elsewhere, but want to keep it in this main thread too.
Got the block and parts today. I just got home with everything.
Seller said he thinks it has been rough bored to .030" and will need honing to fit my pistons.
EDIT: Turned out to be standard bore and crack free.
Casting #3844422 - says 1964 Passenger 409 block on the casting # page here.
The front pad has: a very odd looking symbol that resembles most of a square or a C maybe? followed by 283451
Then over a little: T0507QG decodes to: Tonowanda May 07 - 340 HP
In the timing cover area there is: W814 - 962 - 38 - 011
The rear of the block has the same stuff plus: Z - H3
The bellhousing flange has the casting #3844422 GM4
CFD in the location this site shows for the casting date.
and 32 in large raised numbers on the passenger side opposite where the casting date usually is.
Does the "32" mean it was cast Feb 1, 1964?
I gave it a really good visual in the area below the decks on each side and it looks mint. Block has been painted orange after the machine work, but cam bearing and freeze plugs have not been installed.
________________________________________________
409 Dual 4 Barrel Intake #3814881 with casting date 11-1-61 and the letters EJ/LS under the date code. Not sure what those mean. It has been welded/repaired @ the front bolt hole on the RH side. - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
409 Crank - Turned and Polished .020" R / .020" M - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
Painted Valve Covers - can't find any identifying marks on them, but I think they are truck valve covers. One has a "nipple" welded to the end. Looks like a 5/8" hose would fit on it. - won't be using these. Anyone need them?
________________________________________________
Chrome Timing Cover - I can't find any identifying marks on it either. I suspect it's the original 340HP part. - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
Oil Pan - Passenger side dipstick - drain plug on the bottom front of the sump - Some kind of fitting also on the Passenger side. I need to get pictures of this so maybe someone can tell me what it is. It has a triangular shape and a baffle on the inside of the pan with a female pipe thread on the outside. Looks like 1/2" NPT. What in the world was it for? - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
Distributor - Cast iron. No Vacuum Advance. Has two threaded holes that look like 3/8" fine thread on the side. 3/4 or so is grooved just above the gear. Has single points on it that look fairly new and it looks like there is another threaded unused hole for dual points maybe? Between the upper portion and where it seals to the intake there are 2 large "windows" that are wide open. Inside I can see a spring and something else. ???? This is the first W motor distributor I've ever looked at so I have no idea what this is. I can't find any numbers on the distributor.
________________________________________________
I got all this stuff as a package deal. I'm extremely excited about this. Any info about what I've got is much appreciated.
Got the block and parts today. I just got home with everything.
Seller said he thinks it has been rough bored to .030" and will need honing to fit my pistons.
EDIT: Turned out to be standard bore and crack free.
Casting #3844422 - says 1964 Passenger 409 block on the casting # page here.
The front pad has: a very odd looking symbol that resembles most of a square or a C maybe? followed by 283451
Then over a little: T0507QG decodes to: Tonowanda May 07 - 340 HP
In the timing cover area there is: W814 - 962 - 38 - 011
The rear of the block has the same stuff plus: Z - H3
The bellhousing flange has the casting #3844422 GM4
CFD in the location this site shows for the casting date.
and 32 in large raised numbers on the passenger side opposite where the casting date usually is.
Does the "32" mean it was cast Feb 1, 1964?
I gave it a really good visual in the area below the decks on each side and it looks mint. Block has been painted orange after the machine work, but cam bearing and freeze plugs have not been installed.
________________________________________________
409 Dual 4 Barrel Intake #3814881 with casting date 11-1-61 and the letters EJ/LS under the date code. Not sure what those mean. It has been welded/repaired @ the front bolt hole on the RH side. - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
409 Crank - Turned and Polished .020" R / .020" M - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
Painted Valve Covers - can't find any identifying marks on them, but I think they are truck valve covers. One has a "nipple" welded to the end. Looks like a 5/8" hose would fit on it. - won't be using these. Anyone need them?
________________________________________________
Chrome Timing Cover - I can't find any identifying marks on it either. I suspect it's the original 340HP part. - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
Oil Pan - Passenger side dipstick - drain plug on the bottom front of the sump - Some kind of fitting also on the Passenger side. I need to get pictures of this so maybe someone can tell me what it is. It has a triangular shape and a baffle on the inside of the pan with a female pipe thread on the outside. Looks like 1/2" NPT. What in the world was it for? - won't be using this. Anyone need it?
________________________________________________
Distributor - Cast iron. No Vacuum Advance. Has two threaded holes that look like 3/8" fine thread on the side. 3/4 or so is grooved just above the gear. Has single points on it that look fairly new and it looks like there is another threaded unused hole for dual points maybe? Between the upper portion and where it seals to the intake there are 2 large "windows" that are wide open. Inside I can see a spring and something else. ???? This is the first W motor distributor I've ever looked at so I have no idea what this is. I can't find any numbers on the distributor.
________________________________________________
I got all this stuff as a package deal. I'm extremely excited about this. Any info about what I've got is much appreciated.
Congratulations, you have accumulated a lot of good parts.
THANK YOU. I was BLESSED to find two really good package deals AND be able to sell off some other stuff at the same time to pick them up. Also blessed to have the advice and friendship of everyone here. I really appreciate you all.
Any idea about what that fitting is on the oil pan or how I can ID the distributor? In a picture from the old Curt Harvey article in Car Craft, it ID's one that looks like mine as a dual point, but a member on here said it's a truck distributor with the spring and governor. I'm thinking the truck distributor is right and that I probably didn't luck out and get a factory dual point....although it does look to have the spot for one to mount a second set...and it has no vacuum advance.
Some great posts from another thread. I'm trying to clean this all up some, delete junk, and get the useful stuff all in this thread.
Ronnie Russell said:
"Rule of thumb--- .650 lift for passenger block and .735 for truck block. Isky makes a fly cut tool you can use to cut a notch in the pass car block. " and "Hooley, We run 6.10s 1/8 = 9.60s 1/4 e.t.s with 2 bolt mains. Would I like to have 4 bolt mains?? You bet. But since we have had no failures, it just does not seem cost efficient to use the 4 bolt main mod."
I guess maybe I don't need to worry too much about it and just stick with the plan to use the 2 bolt caps with ARP studs."
Skip FIx said:
I really appreciate all the great information shared on this site. I can't compensate any individual for the insight you share, but I will make sure to help support our forum when I can....and encourage everyone who hasn't ever donated to step up.
Jason
Ronnie Russell said:
"Rule of thumb--- .650 lift for passenger block and .735 for truck block. Isky makes a fly cut tool you can use to cut a notch in the pass car block. " and "Hooley, We run 6.10s 1/8 = 9.60s 1/4 e.t.s with 2 bolt mains. Would I like to have 4 bolt mains?? You bet. But since we have had no failures, it just does not seem cost efficient to use the 4 bolt main mod."
I guess maybe I don't need to worry too much about it and just stick with the plan to use the 2 bolt caps with ARP studs."
Skip FIx said:
"I also used the larger Isky cutter than the valve head to be sure I had radial clearance also, in case I ever add larger valves or a bigger cam.
I looked hard at adding 4 bolt caps but where the outer bolts go there is not that much meat in the main saddles and I felt it might even weaken the block some. Went with studs."
Both of those sound like the right way for me to go. I'm thinking if I order the pistons for 12:1 with a truck block that I might end up with at least that much (and hopefully more) with the car block and required valve notch and valve reliefs in the piston.I really appreciate all the great information shared on this site. I can't compensate any individual for the insight you share, but I will make sure to help support our forum when I can....and encourage everyone who hasn't ever donated to step up.
Jason