Starting new engine this week lifter question

[tenxal]

409 stuff is too hard to come by to take a chance with, in my opinion anyway.

Add to the fact that it sat in your garage w/o an intake on it for over 2 years (how does that happen ) and there's a good chance you've got some internal issues.

The engine is trying to tell you something before you start it........

 

[Iowa409]

Yes to you all, 8:30 pm here just got home from work and getting ready to head to the garage and see where we are at., thank you all for the help, much appreciated, updates to follow.

 

[Don Jacks]

I suspect that the piston rings are going to be a big part of the problem.That's where the friction is highest in an engine,piston ring/cylinder.If they used cast iron rings,common on a stock rebuild,the walls have to be honed rougher than you would with a moly ring.Left dry or draining off of the oil could lead to excessive drag from rust formation.

 

[Iowa409]

Well Don, I went out tonight after soaking the piston and heads for 24 hours and it was still seized, of course it was finished and on the motor run stand, so I got it tore down to the point I can get it back on the engine stand tomorrow, where I can rotate the engine etc. I am going to remove the oil pan first and check all the bearings and rod caps one by one to see if it is the rotating section, I suspect it is, I know when they rebuilt it from what I was told they did not use any high end parts all stock equivalent only. One thing for sure, it will be right this time, I have a great machinist, now admittedly he is not set up to bore a 409, but everything else he should be dead on with. I can certainly see new pistons in there through the spark plug hole. Might be time, if I am getting in there to beef it up, I'll have to see what can be changed to add some power or torque, short of any boring, if it needs bored I'll have to find someone who can bore it, I cant wait to see just what they did do, or did not.

 

[oldrod40]

Sorry to hear about the issues you have Iowa. It doesn't do you any good however I have heard of Randy's and know they do work on 348/409's but I can't speak for quality of work, I have never taken anything there. As far as the oil to the passenger side head, if your using a stock distributor, make sure you have the vacuum advance side pointed out toward the passenger side of the engine unless you milled the grove all the way around on the distributor shaft otherwise you won't get the oil there. Hope you get it going!

 

[Iowa409]

OldRod40, thank you,

I have spoke to them a few times, they seem sharp enough, but I am the owner now, so whatever it needs, is what I will do to correct it, I have probably built 12-14 350's, 355 and 383, but the 409 is a whole different breed, so its similar but no where close in comparison.

I think like don said earlier, I am probably going to find its issue in the lower section I would guess, The engine has not ran since I have had it, but I am hoping It is not something to serious. When I know you will all know.

 

[427John]

Iowa,a freshly rebuilt engine should turn with only 30-35 ft/lb of torque with a torque wrench on the crank bolt to maintain rotation,it may spike up a little higher than that to initiate movement then drop back down as it turns a deflecting beam type wrench is good for this.A buddy once put together a 350 for his son's camaro and couldn't get it to turn he called me over we put a torque wrench on it I said somethings wrong and we started pulling rod /pistons out 1 at a time and rechecking at each one when we got to the offending rod engine spun right over inspected the rod closely and found a tiny burr on the bearing mating surface where he had bumped it on something had the rod big end rehoned and reassembled it and no problems,the tiny burr was enough to eliminate the bearing clearance and thats all it took to seize it up.While your issue is probably ring related as others suggest this was just an example of how little it takes to make it drag.

 

[Junky]

Many times, a fresh set of eyes on the engine will spot the problem. That is why there are 2 surgeons in the operating room. Some people can't stand to have someone looking over their shoulder, and those are the same people that screw up, and then blame everyone else. We all make mistakes, and a reputable person will admit their mistakes and learn from them. I also agree that it is in the lower end, and the number of things that are causing this problem is probably only 1, but you need to take your time, and be methodical in checking each item.

 

[Iowa409]

agreed 427john and junky. I feel as though it is squarely on my shoulders to say the least, I paid all the money for a rebuilt 409 because that is the motor I HAD to have, I never tested it or even tried to spin the rotating assembly when I bought it, I just trusted the guy I bought it from, live and learn on that note, then I left it sitting in the garage for 2.5-3 years exposed, then just jumped in and started buying all the needed parts to bring it to completion, so I may be the guy that caused it, it could have set there and dried out.

Well I guess I will when I tear it down, I'll know.

I agree with you 427john, it has to be something that is dragging, and until I do tear into tomorrow I am only guessing, my first thought is a dry spun bearing from sitting and not being lubricated.

 

[tenxal]

I agree with you 427john, it has to be something that is dragging, and until I do tear into tomorrow I am only guessing, my first thought is a dry spun bearing from sitting and not being lubricated.

The likely area is the cylinders....rings rusted and/or stuck in the pistons, rusty cylinder walls, etc. Hopefully, a fresh hone a new set of rings will get you back in biz.

 

[Toms63SSQB]

Reading this thread is like going to the movies,can't wait until the end.

 

[skipxt4]

 

[blkblk63ss]

Reading this thread is like going to the movies,can't wait until the end.

Aw shit, I didn't see that coming!!!!!

 

[Iowa409]

So off the run stand back on the engine stand, oil pan removed, it looks like a top notch job in there, all stuff is marked properly, all caps are on properly from what I can see without it rotating, each piston/rod is marked 526/527/528 respectfully, so that looks good, the bottoms of all cylinders look excellent, but...... on top of each piston is rust not much but I assume it doesn't take much, although it looks to be more surface discoloration and
so forth, but I am guessing the rings might look worse, I have the motor turned 90 Degrees, filled each cylinder with tranny fluid on one side to soak in for awhile

I am also trying think about with the heads on still, if we are have a valve clearance issue, judging by the amount of detail work inside this engine, I don't think that is likely, but possible, this builder looks to have done a excellent job in my opinion. So I think the stock heads aren't the high concern at the moment.


I need to come up with a tool or make one, that will let me bolt a few connecting points to the rear crank so I can try to rock it back and forth.

 

[RussC]

If you put a socket and breaker bar on the crank...how does it turn. Should be pretty easy at this point. If it turns free I would suspect the starter or cables

 

[Iowa409]

no not easy..........frozen/seized, in hindsight had I stopped trying to crank/turn it over, sending it deeper into being seized that would have been better, I am way past the torque value now on the crank bolt, so that's why I want to make a tool to bolt to the rear, to rock it back and forth, I don't want to snap a bolt off in the crank, before I do all that I'll pull the heads and pull the pistons. But I think if I can get it rocking back and forth that may be the ticket. I would say of the eight cylinders 4 of the cylinders are a little rusty, so patience is going to have win this battle.

 

[RussC]

Good luck

 

[blkblk63ss]

Are you sure the starter is not locked in ???

 

[427John]

If there was some rust in the cylinders it may have scraped some off with the rings then packed it in the ring grooves of the pistons,if so the packed in rust will prevent the rings from flexing in and out to follow the contour of the cylinder wall which will cause more drag.If this is the case then the best course of action will be to pull the piston rod assemblies and remove the rings and clean the ring grooves.Chances are between removing the rings and having been scraped up down a rusty cylinder wall they will be damaged so new rings will be in order as will running a hone thru the cylinders the up side is the disassembly will allow you to relube everything during reassembly.

 

[Iowa409]

Starter is removed, 427john, I am thinking the same thing kind of........ my hopes for soaking it, is to hopefully have it break free for sure.

BUT....I am not sure if I got it to break free, if there wouldn't still be crap caught in the rings, meaning I might as well just tear it apart now instead of waiting to free it up? Because if I don't change the rings, I would always risk failure again from debris, unless you guys think it would flush itself out during this process.