Race Engine project planning

[1961BelAir427]

Thanks!! When I get to that point I would love to take you up on borrowing that cutter Skip. I could send you a deposit (+shipping) to hold until it's back to you. That is the best way to work out loaning important tools over long distances I think.
I got the block yesterday, but it's stored at a friend's house. Hope to take it to the machine shop tomorrow and pick up the 427 block. It's been ready about 2 months, and I haven't been able to go get it. They don't mind it sitting there since we have been friends since before the shop opened + the job is paid for.
The 409 turned out to be standard bore.....do you think I should get pistons that are .030" (4.342") or go ahead and get .038" over (4.350") to make ring choice easier? With all the 409 parts I see listed....I am not sure it really matters which size.

 

[1961BelAir427]

I dropped off the block at the machine shop today....about to go to the doctor for an x-ray and hopefully get cleared to go back to work.
Please help with my list of machine work in case I am forgetting something I need to do on a W motor being this is my first:
1. Vatt & pressure check the block.
2. They are going to check the bores which are supposed to be rough bored .030" and see if that's right....if so then they will hone the block to fit whatever pistons I bring them. Edit: turned out to be std bore.
3. Align hone the mains adding ARP studs.
4. Cam bearings - Early small block #CHP-4 with the rear bearing drilled for the 409
5. Freeze plugs. I know they like to use Stainless steel freeze plugs and get kits for not much more $ than regular FP kits. The ones for my 427 were $13 from the machine shop. Not sure if they have them for a W-motor. Would it be a combo of SBC & BBC kits?
6. I remember something about needing to remove oil galley core plugs and tap them for thread-in pipe plugs. Am I remembering correctly? Leaving anything out?

That is all I can think of for the block work at the moment. Maybe deck it depending on how they think those look and where we end up after we mock up the rotating assembly??

 

[Ronnie Russell]

There are early and late small block cam bearings. I believe you need early. I would never leave the block at the machine shop before mocking up crankshaft with a rod and checking rod bolt clearance to every cyl.. If the cyls do need notching, it should be done before final machining and cleaning. The Scat rods that are made for stroker applications will probably clear without cyl notching but probably is a gamble. Your machine shop can do the mock up but will cost some.

 

[1961BelAir427]

I will have to check into the cam bearings. Thanks for the heads up on those. I think I just need to go with CHP-4 bearings and have the rear drilled for the three holes. I wanted to get it on into the shop so the bore could be measured and I would know what pistons to get to be able to mock everything up. I knew I had to clearance the bore for the exhaust valve (thanks to you and others for the info and great pictures) but had heard the crank and rods would "probably" clear. Like you said....a gamble. I guess to have it cleaned again after everything is done that won't be such a big deal.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

CHP-4 is correct CHP-8 is incorrect.

 

[1961BelAir427]

Thanks again....didn't know that before your post above about early vs late small block cam bearings. The ones I already have are the CHP-8.....so will need to buy more.

 

[Skip FIx]

My block with Eagle H beams and a 4" crank needed a little grinding to clear.

 

[1961BelAir427]

So other than mock-up, grinding the block for crank/rod/and valve to bore clearance, and then cleaning it again....did I leave anything out in post #83? Any particular 348/409 machining steps that I am leaving out?

 

[Ronnie Russell]

No need to throw more at you, you have plenty to think about. I know you are familiar with grinding flashing on the oil drain back holes in the lifter valley , but it is good to really clean up block water inlets. On some blocks, especially pass. car blocks, when using a 4 in. stroke , I believe it is number 8 rod bolt gets very close to the pan rail, just something else to check on mock up. One would think all 409 blocks are the same but when it comes to clearance issues, they can be different. I cannot explain that, but check everything and don't take anything for granted. You will do well.

 

[BSL409]

Clearance for A 4” Eagle crank& rods

 

[1961BelAir427]

I appreciate you throwing anything you can think of that I need to do at me. I tend to be forgetful....so if it's written in this thread I can just copy it down and have a check list to go by. LOL I'd planned on grinding the flash in the valley holes and where the water pump mounts. I have polished the lifter valley to aid drain back on a few blocks before (very time consuming) but I'm not convinced it's really needed....so probably going to skip that on this build.

 

[buildit]

I dropped off the block at the machine shop today....about to go to the doctor for an x-rayand hopefully get cleared to go back to work.

Please help with my list of machine work in case I am forgetting something I need to do on a W motor being this is my first:

1. Vatt & pressure check the block.

2. They are going to check the bores which are supposed to be rough bored .030" and see if that's right....if so then they will hone the block (with TQ plates) to fit whatever pistons I bring them.

3. Align bore the mains after I bring them some ARP studs.

4. Cam bearings - I am going to buy a set of 409 cam bearings for $35....let them use the rear bearing out of the kit since it is W specific....then use all the others from a set of Small Block Durabond HP bearings that I have. This is the correct way to go when running a lot of spring pressure correct?

5. Freeze plugs. I know they like to use Stainless steel freeze plugs and get kits for not much more than regular FP kits. The ones for my 427 were $13 from the machine shop. Not sure if they have them for a W-motor. Would it be a combo of SBC & BBC kits?

6. I remember something about needing to remove oil galley core plugs and tap them for thread-in pipe plugs. Am I remembering correctly? Leaving anything out?

That is all I can think of for the block work at the moment. Maybe deck it depending on how they think those look and where we end up after we mock up the rotating assembly??

It is critically important that align boring of mains (and even align honing) be done BEFORE the cylinders are bored and honed. Otherwise, there is bound to be some loss of perpendicularity between the cylinder bores and the crankshaft centerline. This is why the first machining operation done on a block is is the mains align hone or align boring. Any quality shop will use a boring machine which places the already honed main housing saddles of the block on a parallel bar on the machine's table which has had the bar trammed to be EXACTLY 90 degrees to the machine's boring head.

 

[1961BelAir427]

It is critically important that align boring of mains (and even align honing) be done BEFORE the cylinders are bored and honed. Otherwise, there is bound to be some loss of perpendicularity between the cylinder bores and the crankshaft centerline. This is why the first machining operation done on a block is is the mains align hone or align boring. Any quality shop will use a boring machine which places the already honed main housing saddles of the block on a parallel bar on the machine's table which has had the bar trammed to be EXACTLY 90 degrees to the machine's boring head.

That makes a lot of sense. The list above that you quoted was supposed to say align hone, not align bore. I edited it just now.

 

[models916]

I don't think torque plate is needed on the thick casting. I have never seen one for the W. Why not use all the durabond bearings? Just drill the SBC rear for the 409 holes.

 

[1961BelAir427]

My little local shop has a plate they made for W motors even though they have only done a handful of them. WRONG.....
EDIT: They DO NOT have a torque plate for W's. Thought I saw one on the wall there years ago, and it was just a plate to use for pressure testing. LOL I am going to do just that with the cam bearings and edited the previous post about it.

 

[Don Jacks]

It cant hurt!

 

[buildit]

That makes a lot of sense. The list above that you quoted was supposed to say align hone, not align bore. I edited it just now. What should I do in this situation?

1. The block has been rough bored, but not final honed already.
2. Not sure if it was align honed or not before the bore work was done, but the stock main bolts are still on it.
3. I want to switch to ARP Main studs.

Do you think we should do the studs, align hone, and then bore the block further if there is sufficient cylinder wall thickness??

Here's what I would do. Torque the main caps in place with the bolts it was align honed with. ( block on engine stand or work table). With a bore guage, check the ID, roundness. and ovality of all the main housings. Specs on bore diameter are 2.6870 to 2.6880. Unless your journal diameters are under their range (2.498-2.499), you want your housing diameters to at least be in the upper half of their range. If they check out ok, write everything down for reference. Then remove the bolts from one cap. With that main cap still tight in its register, see if you can thread the ARP studs into place. (Never use thread locking compound on the studs) If the stud contacts the cap on the front or rear of the hole, you can sometimes shift the cap in the registers so that it clears (cap must be reset in both registers, torqued, and diameter rechecked). Otherwise, the hole size must be increased in 1/64" drill sizes until the stud clears. This is ideally done on the mill. Do this on all caps. Torque the new studs to their spec and recheck all diameters. Most likely, they will all be a tiny bit less up and down due to the studs increased torque value. It may take a light brush or two on the main align hone to restore the diameter. Now the machine shop will have to set up the block on the parallel bar and tram either a front or rear wall of the cylinders to be sure they are square to the crank centerline. If they tell you it isn't necessary, find another shop. If they are not square to the crank, the block may have been bored using an angle plate attached to the cylinder deck. (I know, unbelievable, but there are still so-called machinists doing this). If not square to the crank, the block will have to be bored to the next oversize, as it cannot be corrected with a hone. Everything will probably still be ok if the block was bored properly in the first place.

 

[1961BelAir427]

THANK YOU!! I like how you put that all in easy to understand terms too.

 

[1961BelAir427]

Updating the parts/price list again.
409 Passenger Block - standard bore '64 340HP (I got LUCKY!!!)
Forged pistons. I will be shooting for about 13:1 CR. $800
File-Fit Moly Rings $100
348/409 Main bearings - H series $175
Balancing $250
True Roller Timing Set with Torrington Bearing $75
Show Cars 2 piece stamped steel timing cover $115
Show Cars distributor adapter/sleeve so I can run my current ignition system $80
Correct Length CV Products 3/8" diameter .080" Wall Chromoly pushrods $65
(Will be used from an Ebay seller who has MANY different lengths for $25-35/set of 8)
Solid Roller Cam 265*I/270*E dur@.050" - .680" Lift 110* LSA & istalled 4* advanced. $390
Stef's aluminum oil pan with integral windage screen $450
Induction: Hopefully one of Aubrey's Speed Port 7000 single planes $700
2" Fenderwell Headers $575
Scat I-Beam Rods 6.385" with 7/16" capscews - already have
Scat 4" crank - already have (Thanks Ebay for the 10% off coupon!!)
Big block chevy rod bearings H series - already have
Cam Bearings DuraBond CHP-4 (rear bearing modified for W block) - already have
ARP Main Studs APR 135-5402 - already have
ARP Head Bolts for Edelbrock Heads- already have
Fel Pro # FS8007PT-3 Gasket Kit - already have
Big Block chevy roller cam button and cam lock plate - already have
Pro Comp Electric Water Pump - already have
Small block FluidDampr SFI approved 6.75" Balancer - already have
168 Tooth SFI approved Flexplate - already have
Balancer bolt & washer - already have
Small block fuel pump block-off plate - already have
Edelbrock heads (As cast @ first, then CNC port work after 1-2 yrs when it's time to refresh) - already have
Herbert 1.550" Dual Springs - already have
195# @ 1.940" Closed, 600# @ 1.200" Open, 1.150" Coil Bind, .725" Max Lift - already have
Herbert 10* Titanium Retainers - already have
11/32" - 10* + .050" Installed Height Valve Locks - already have
Herbert Solid Roller Lifters - already have
1.7:1 Big block roller rockers: Crand Gold Aluminum OR Comp Cams Stainless - already have
Edelbrock black finned aluminum valve covers - already have
Intake Heat Shield - Part of the Speed Port 7000 (standard part with it)
Holley #80496 - HP950 carb - already have
Melling 348/409 #IS55-A heavy duty oil pump driveshaft - already have
Melling oil pump Late model SBC with 3/4" inlet #M155 - already have
Melling Oil pump pickup/screen Late model SBC with 3/4" inlet #M155 or BBC #77-S2 - already have (Stef's pickup/screen also included with pan)
________________________________________
Total $3775 (plus the price of all machine work)

 

[buildit]

That's a nice "already have" list!