1959 Turbo LS build

[HemiChallenger71]

Picked up two 1959's this summer. Been looking for one for 3 years sierously, wanted one since I was 10 years old. One is a parts (california) car (still restorable but very rusty) and the car I'm posting pictures of is the car that will be getting the treatment. My purpose for this thread is to ask a lot of questions and get insight from other members.

My plans are this: 6.0 LS truck motor, single 76-80mm turbo, th-400, 12 bolt and look 100% original from inside and outside the car. I will be doing the mechanical and chassis first. Body and interior later when I can afford to do it right. I already have the 12 bolt and a 6.0 a phone call away to my guy that owns a salvage yard. Th-400s are a dime a dozen.

On the way home:

At home:

 

[1961BelAir427]

Welcome!
Advice/opinions:
1. Use a long-tail (9") TH400. That will make it easier to run a one-piece driveshaft.
2. Sell the 12 bolt and put that money into a bolt-in housing/axle package 9" rearend. I use the 12 bolt since I already had all of the parts including axles and c-clip eliminators, but trust me if I had it to do over I'd just go with the 9". Easier to weld to. Easier to get parts for. Easier to swap centers. Looks closer to stock. (So many people used to thing my stock 8.2" was a 9" anyway.) No c-clips or c-clip eliminators to break of leak. Slight power penalty with the 9" though.

A member is building a stroked 348 (430+") with EFI and plans for forced induction in the future. 6 head bolts per cylinder design is only found in the W engine family (and now in the non-stock LSX or aftermarket LS platform blocks/heads). That extra head bolt sure is nice for turbo use. You'd be surprised how favorably a stroked 348 could stack up money wise compared to the 6.0 LS and wouldn't be "cookie-cutter". No offense meant by that....just something to ponder before you're money into an engine. If sticking with the LS platform I'd consider a 6.2L L92 platform. Those heads flow 320+ cfm bone stock.

 

[HemiChallenger71]

Yes I was planning on a long tail 400 and mounting the engine and trans as far back as possible. Not sure if I should go with mounts and cross member that I can buy or if I should do my own to make it work better for the x frame with a 1 piece shaft.

The 12 bolt was hard to pass up, has the gears I want (3.08) and was cheap. Like $400 cheap with moser 30 splines, c-clip elminators, 1350 yoke, locker and good condition drum brakes with low miles. I liked the 9in. idea but dropping 2/3k on a rear axle is more than I plan on having in the engine.

All out power isnt the main goal (yet) just a fast cruiser. I can get a 6.0 ready to run for under $1000 and drop it in. Will upgrade it later. The whole point of a turbo is to get past the exhaust problems with an x-frame.
Lets face it W-engines are expensive to build. I've built an worked on too many engines. The ls doesnt leak oil, is cheap and dead reliable. Plenty of people making 1200+hp with a factory 4 head bolts per cylinder 6.0. 600 should be a walk in the park with room for lots more.

With that said... I really appreciate your post and look forward to any thoughts you'd like to share. This is a blank canvas and if I can avoid any problems anyone else has already dealt with it helps immensley.

The body will come off the frame this winter for strengthening and suspension. This is where a lot of my questions lie.

 

[1961BelAir427]

On the mounts....I would use an off the shelf trans crossmember from showcars. For engine mount adapters I have heard the ones called 1" set-back are the ones that actually leave the engine in the correct position for your transmission to be in the stock location. I want to say CarShop is the brand to go with, but it's been awhile. They are only about $50.
You'll need an F-body oil pan, screen, and windage tray.
How wide is the 12 bolt you have? It needs to be 60" from outside axle flange (where the wheel bolts up) to axle flange. Any wider and you'll have a hard time getting wheels on past the low hanging quarter panels.
I wasn't thinking you should drop 2 or 3 grand on a complete rearend, but more like the bolt in $1000 housing /axle package and then a common junk yard center section (at least for a start). One with 3.08 gears should be easy to find.
You will most likely spend $300 to $600 just to have someone correctly fabricate all the brackets on your 12 bolt for it to bolt into your X frame and even then you are dealing with welding the upper control arm brackets to a cast (or nodular) iron center. That takes someone with some really good welding skills to do properly. For all I know you may have those yourself and that part may be free. I don't.

Again, not trying to hate on the 12 bolt. I have one in my 61 and have a few in other vehicles too. They are great rearends. I'm just looking at it from an "if I could start over" stand point.

 

[HemiChallenger71]

My 12 bolt is from a 67-72 a body. 62.5". If I could find a "bolt-in" 9in. for $1000 I'd be all over it. I know 60" is the factory width. I just planned on 15" stock style wheels for the car anyway and figured all kinds of different back spaces should be easy to find and cheap.

I've heard about issues with 9in.'s and 1 piece shafts as well.

I wasnt super concerned with the engine and trans being in the stock location. I figured if I could move it back it would help everything, driveshaft length using a ls truck oil pan etc.

http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6675
http://carshop.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/74328/LS1GM

 

[1961BelAir427]

"If you desireto set the engine back to the original plane of the transmission useour popular #2370 part to move it back 1 inch."

Those are the parts I was talking about. The mount adapters from their quote above should put the trans in the stock location and allow the Showcars crossmember to work correctly.
I wouldn't worry about setting it back further because of having to fabricate everything then. The long tail TH400 will be enough to let you use the 1 piece shaft, but you will need to trim the rear / bottom of the frame tunnel for clearance no matter which way you go. There are threads with pictures on here for doing it.
The $1000 bolt in - nine inch package is available from ShowCars, QuickTime Performance (may be spelled QuikTime?) and others. It is just a housing and axle package with bearings pressed on and wheel studs. You have to provide the center section and brakes. Buying a new or rebuilt center section isn't cheap, but they are common and cheap used. I think the housings are made for your stock drum brakes to bolt on from your 59, but not positive.
The problem of the slightly wider rear is that even though you can make up for it with offset / backspacing as far as the rear track goes......you aren't left with much room between the quarter panel and the axle end/drum when trying to squeeze the wheel/tire under there. I have a time snaking 8" wheels under mine even with the stock 60" width. (67 Camaro housing)


You can get a truck pan to clear the engine crossmember, but it will hang way below it so either don't use it or plan to be very careful. Definitely plan on a high ride height if you use a truck pan. Old steel pans would bend when you hit something. The LS is going to crack or break.

 

[HemiChallenger71]

I'm going factory ride height for sure.

So my dreams of 9-10" wheels with 275/60/15 drag radials I should throw out the window?

I'd love to see any threads about 1 piece drive shafts and frame strengthening from here. I stumbled into a ford 9in. thread from 2006. Still sifting through it.

Now I need to pick your brain on control arms/suspension and brakes.

 

[1961BelAir427]

Lots of others to look through for info, but one that comes to mind with pictures, 1 -piece driveshaft, and a 9" rear is Brian's thread on the 61 Biscayne. BSL409 is his user name. You can search his posts to find the thread quickly.
You can fit 9" or 10" wheels and 275/60-15's just fine......installing them with your wider than stock rear will be the problem. Maybe if you do one side at the time and use a large floor jack to lift the body way up while the rear barely leaves the ground you may squeeze them between the quarter and the rear by sticking them in at an angle. You'll have to get maximum separation between body and full drop on the rear to have the room. Once they are bolted on you can run at factory or slightly higher rear ride height just fine provided your backspacing is correct. Use an adjustable panhard bar to center the rear or one side will scrub. Get one that is double adjustable so you can set it "on car" instead of having to unbolt it to adjust the length.
Send a PM to 58delivery for brakes. He can fix you up for sure!

 

[DonSSDD]

Welcome to the site and congarts on the 59, a great choice.

The 59 rear quarter wheel openings are quite a bit lower than the 61 Jason has, but what he says about getting wheels in there is the only way to do it. You just may have to compromise a bit on the wheels to get something in there.

There was a TV show that built a 409 2 door post 61 a couple of years ago. They did a lot of frame strengthening, it would give you something to look at. Not that TV shows are usually anything worth watching for hints to improve your project, but this may give you some visuals. Google "Red Sled" and see if you can find a video.

Don

 

[303Radar]

Welcome to the site and congarts on the 59, a great choice.

The 59 rear quarter wheel openings are quite a bit lower than the 61 Jason has, but what he says about getting wheels in there is the only way to do it. You just may have to compromise a bit on the wheels to get something in there.

There was a TV show that built a 409 2 door post 61 a couple of years ago. They did a lot of frame strengthening, it would give you something to look at. Not that TV shows are usually anything worth watching for hints to improve your project, but this may give you some visuals. Google "Red Sled" and see if you can find a video.

Don

Muscle Car is the show Don is referring to. It got me motivated to restore my '59 El Camino.

 

[303Radar]

One advantage I think you'll have with a turbo LS versus my pro-charged 431 is top end power. With the components I'm using, I don't think I should rev it above 6500 rpm, the hydraulic roller lifters aren't rated for a higher rpm. However, I'm not building a quarter mile monster, I just want a fun car where I can shit & get!

Have fun and lots of luck!
Ragan

 

[HemiChallenger71]

bsl409's thread has been a ton of help!

Another couple questions: Will a-body spindles bolt in to the factory control arms/ball joints? I have a free set I can take.

What do you guys think of these front control arms:
http://www.classicindustries.com/product/1959/impala/parts/*r5864b.html

 

[303Radar]

The only insight I can give you regarding the front control arms is, the ball joint looks like the stock size and likely won't get in the way of the steering arm if you use drop spindles.
For a good set of spindles, reach out to '58 Delivery. He has hooked several members up with quality spindles and after market brakes!

 

[1961BelAir427]

The only (stock) disc brake spindles that will work are 68-82 Vette ones (of all things!). Then you'd need all the rest of the associated parts. It's just not worth the expense.

 

[62impala409]

Hemichallenger71, Forgive me, but I am trying to be as gentle as possible here, but that '59 has QUITE A BIT OF RUST! I wouldn't know where to start on a project like this. Is the frame intact? Looks like a long term project. I wish you luck.

 

[oldskydog]

They can all be saved.

 

[LMBRJQ 60]

They can all be saved.

My 56 Belair 4 door sedan came out of 3 wrecks from 3 separate junk yards. Can't find good old cars over here.
When I had finished it with 350 and the 50th and 9 inch rear a vintage car club guy came up to me and gave me heck about ruining a good car.
I politely said to him that this was the same one he had walked past at the dump just with 11 years of my time spent on it and then I asked him where his one was?
He left about then.
Point being I would save that 59 if I had it.

Steve

 

[Jim Sullivan]

x 2

My '63 SS was in similar condition when I brought it home a few years ago. On its way to being good as new(I hope).

 

[303Radar]

My 56 Belair 4 door sedan came out of 3 wrecks from 3 separate junk yards. Can't find good old cars over here.
When I had finished it with 350 and the 50th and 9 inch rear a vintage car club guy came up to me and gave me heck about ruining a good car.
I politely said to him that this was the same one he had walked past at the dump just with 11 years of my time spent on it and then I asked him where his one was?
He left about then.
Point being I would save that 59 if I had it.

Steve

When spending my money, I'm going to get my car, not someone else's.
I can't imagine how much they think I'll be "ruining" my '59 El Camino. After all, I'm fuel injecting the original punched out 348 and putting in a Jag IRS.
If I'm going to "ruin" it, at least I can have my idea of FUN!!!

 

[HemiChallenger71]

The only insight I can give you regarding the front control arms is, the ball joint looks like the stock size and likely won't get in the way of the steering arm if you use drop spindles.
For a good set of spindles, reach out to '58 Delivery. He has hooked several members up with quality spindles and after market brakes!

My main concern is the multi piece spindles. 1 piece spindles seem "safer" in my mind. Also having the caliper mount cast into the spindle would also seem "safer" than having a bolt on caliper bracket for calipers. I will retain factory ride height. MI roads are some of if not the worst in the country. No joke.

The only (stock) disc brake spindles that will work are 68-82 Vette ones (of all things!). Then you'd need all the rest of the associated parts. It's just not worth the expense.

Thanks.

Hemichallenger71, Forgive me, but I am trying to be as gentle as possible here, but that '59 has QUITE A BIT OF RUST! I wouldn't know where to start on a project like this. Is the frame intact? Looks like a long term project. I wish you luck.

This car has a nice frame, factory paint inside the rockers and the rear 1/4's are workable. Floor/trunk pans are cakewalk. I also got a TON of extra parts. doors, fenders trim etc. that are as nice or nicer than the doors on the car.

I've looked at a lot of 59's. For my price range and what I want to do this car is perfect. The problem with 59's is they are all rotted out (and priced higher than what I paid for both of my cars) or need next to nothing (body wise, but need everything else) and command 8k prices. I've been looking for 3 years. I could find 53-58 and 60-64 cars that were drivers that needed work for 3-5k. ZERO 59's like that.

I like my car because its a no option car that needs work and cutting it up and doing what I want will only increase the value. Not that I care about the value. A I-6 3 on the tree radio delete no reverse light bel-air isnt going to bring any money restored. My parts car probably would but it doesnt have any original parts besides the rotted body, bumpers and frame.