How to tell a 348 or 409 car. Need input for our FAQ page

[Rockfish39]

REPEAT: but please see the photos

The following is a repeat of what I wrote earlier, except that now I pulled a few photos off of eBay to show yous what I'm talking about....

Interestingly enough, there was a guy trying to sell a '65 "409" fan shroud on eBay about a week ago, buy it now for $425 I think and pics available upon request... I requested the photos... All I got back was " uuuuhhhh, sorry I cant find the shroud"

What kind of BS is that??? :stooges

ANYWAYS >>>> The photos are Garden Variety BBC, NOT 409

REPEAT >>> 409 application-specific fan shrouds for '62-'64 were also talked about,
But, did you know that the same is true for the '65s ???

How many times have you seen 1965 fan shrouds for sale on eBay advertised as a "409" unit ??? Most all of the ones I have ever seen on eBay are your garden variety BBC '65-'66 units, not 409.

There is a REAL SIMPLE way of telling a '65 409 shroud from your garden variety BBC '65-'66 fan shroud, but I'm not gonna tell you the answer

OK, Ill share this last little tid bit with you all too...

The 409 fan shrouds have left and right upper gussets spot welded between the ring and the frame. Garden variety BBC '65-'66 shrouds dont have these.

Rock

 

[Rockfish39]

Beware of these too...

I see these alot on eBay also...

Correct BBC, but not 409 and not 1965 or 1966

Please see the two photos. This shroud belongs on a '67-'68 BB car...

The gussets are a different shape and are welded in at the BOTTOM of the ring

'65 409 gussets are welded in at the TOP of the ring

 

[bobs409]

Dusting off an old thread

This thread has been buried for a while, let dust it off and revive it. I'm finally trying to make a list from all this info but it's not easy.

Excluding anything I may have missed from the 8 pages of threads , here is basically what I have:

1958: (348 cars)

*fan shroud
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)
*Voltage regulator only had the 2 bolts on top, bottom hole had no bolt but has a rubber bumper in place of it.


1959: (348 cars)

*fan shroud
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)
*Voltage regulator only had the 2 bolts on top, bottom hole had no bolt but has a rubber bumper in place of it.
*crossed flags on hood above "V". (6 cylinder had only "Chevrolet" script, 283 had same script with a "V" emblem above it and 348 cars had the script with "V" above it and crossed flags above that-all 3)

1960: (348 cars)

*fan shroud
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)
*Voltage regulator only had the 2 bolts on top, bottom hole had no bolt but has a rubber bumper in place of it.
*Grill emblem (348 had the V with crossed flags)


1961: (348 & 409 cars)

*special hood and trunk badging for 348 car
*All 1961 & 1962 409's had a standard transmission. Car must have this, no automatics.
*all tachs had no redline for this year.
*larger radiator
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)


1962: (409 cars)

*Hood and trunk badging for this year are all the same
*crossed flags with 409 emblems of fenders (just crossed flags means a 327)
*All 1962 409 cars had a tach mandatory. (300hp 327 4 speed car tachs were madatory as well. 250hp 327 car tachs were optional)
*All 1961 & 1962 409's had a standard transmission. Car must have this, no automatics.
*All 409 cars had ballast resistor on firewall
*all 4 speed 409 cars had a column mounted tach w/sender on inner fenderwell (3spd is still

unclear)
*larger radiator
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)


1963: (409 cars)

*All 409 cars had ballast resistor on firewall
*all 409's had a fuel return line
*No AC on high performance 409's. (63-65 for sure, not certain on 62?)
*larger radiator
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)
*fuel line routed under A arm away from exhaust manifold
*340hp 409/powerglide cars had optional tach, not mandatory

1964: (409 cars)

*All 409 cars had ballast resistor on firewall
*all 409's had a fuel return line
*No AC on high performance 409's. (63-65 for sure, not certain on 62?)
*larger radiator
*dual exhaust
*3/8" fuel line (see note 1 below)
*fuel line routed under A arm away from exhaust manifold
*4 speed mandatory with 400hp & 425hp 409's. (no 3 speed available)
*All 4 speed 409 cars had mandatory tach. (even 340hp)
*340hp 409/powerglide cars had optional tach, not mandatory


1965: (409 cars)

*All 409 cars had ballast resistor on firewall
*all 409's had a fuel return line
*larger radiator
*No AC on high performance 409's. (63-65 for sure, not certain on 62?)
*340hp 409 cars had a Heavy Duty unit. The HD/PG is easy to tell apart from a STD/PG as the case is larger and has a giant "H" cast into the top of the bell housing
*12 bolt rear
*4-link rear suspension (the left rear upper control arm is unique to 409s and station wagons)
*14X6" rims
*Fan shroud-409 fan shrouds have left and right upper gussets spot welded between the ring and the frame. BBC '65-'66 shrouds dont have these.
*dual exhaust



Note 1=while all 348/409 cars had dual exhaust with specially routed lines, any car that was ordered with dual exhaust (any engine) also got the specially routed lines. All 327 cars all came with 3/8" fuel lines and dual exhaust.


Questions I have: (there will be more later!)

1) Did 1958 thru 1960 cars have special badging for 348 cars? If so, explain.
2) Did 1961 have any special badging for 409 cars? If so, explain.
3) What cars & what engines got the tach for 1961?
4) Didn't ALL 4bbl cars come with 3/8" fuel lines? If so, wouldn't even smaller 327's have them too and not just 300hp cars?
5) I am unsure about ballast resistors for 58-60. Can anyone shed some light on what cars had that?

Please fill in anything I don't have listed and correct anything you feel is wrong.

 

[MK IISS]

Bob: I can answer some of your questions.

1958 348 cars had no special badging. They were the same as 283s with the chrome V on the hood and trunk.

1961 special badging should say: "Special Grill Badging" not "Special Hood Badging"

1962 327/300s 4-spds along with 409s came standard with the tach...327/250s did not, it was an option. I'm pretty sure a 3-spd 409 and 327/300 did not come with a tach, you had to order it if you wanted one. It was the same in 1963.

1964 409s were not available with a 3-spd man. trans and all the 4-spd 409s had a tach, even the 340 horse. '63 & '64 409/340 Powerglides did not come standard with a tach...it was an option.

FUEL LINES: I've been told and I seem to remember that the 327s, both 250 and 300 horse had the larger fuel line and of course they came standard with dual exhaust (except the 1965 327/250) so the line was re-routed. On earlier cars, for example the 1961, a Super Turbo Fire 4bbl 283 came standard with single exhaust and the smaller line. If the car was ordered with optional dual exhausts it had the larger line,...the same as the 348/409. Even the 283 2bbl could be ordered with optional dual exhausts from 1958-1961 so it would have the larger re-routed line so judging a car by the fuel line may not be an accurate way to determine the original engine.

 

[4onthefloor]

Just browsed thru this whole interesting thread...I noticed the Window sticker posted by someone which was retyped from an original...it lists a close ratio with a Muncie number...I was always under the impression that 64 was the first year for Muncie and earlier years used Borg Warner units. This window sticker is from a 63 so now I wonder what is correct ?

 

[Impalaguru]

The muncie first appeared in 1963, mid-year. It has unique casting numbers on the case, tail housing and also has a unique front bearing retainer, in small block applications.
One other thing, the 63 muncie retained the 63 shifter, as previously used on the T-10. It was the thin stick without reverse lockout. Mfg by Ansen. Some people get confused with "Muncie" shifters. They were used with Muncie 4-speeds but were built by ITM. 64 was the first year for the ITM or "Muncie" shifter.
Ross

 

[4onthefloor]

Thanks for clearing that up for me...

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

1961 "W" badging

It is my understading that the factory 1961 "W" cars (whether 348 or 409) had unique badging on both the hood and the trunk lid. At least my 348 cars had them on, and I am assuming they were original. Of the pics of the '61 SSs, I note that these same badges are in place. Never saw a real 1961 SS, but Tommy would know.


These badges are (were) different for the 283 and for the 6 cylinder.

Best,
TomK

 

[Fathead Racing]

Special badging?

1960 grill emblems were different for the 6 cyl, 283 and 348 engines. 6 was just the chevy badge, 283 had the V and 348 had the V with crossed flags.

 

[bobs409]

Thanks guys, I made the additions.

Looks like the jury is still out on the 1961 grill vs. hood badge.

Hey Tommy! We need your assistance.


Keep up the good work guys.

 

[bobs409]

Fatride, didn't the 348 1960 cars also have crossed flags with a V on the trunk lid?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[bobs409]

I found a pic that CarlK60 sent me a while back. Supposedly this is the 348 grill badge so Richard is probably right. Still need to confirm this.

edit: I just checked Tommy's photo album and his car has this emblem so I can't argue with that. Now, did the 409 cars use the same emblem????? (told you this is confusing)

Here's the pic:

 

[real61ss]

Tom is correct, the 61 348 and 409 cars had the "v" with crossed flags in the grille, the 283 cars just had the "v' (no crossed flags) and the 6 cyl. cars didn't have the "v".
So far as the trunk goes, the 283 cars had a "v' shaped emblem, the 348 and 409 cars had the crossed flags above the emblem. The 61 SS cars had the flags on the trunk with SS over the flags.

All 61 hoods were the same, had Chevrolet spelled out across the leading edge.

On the subject of the 63 Muncie transmission, Ross is correct, I happen to have a 63 4 speed car that was one of the first to receive the new muncie transmission. The car was built at the Baltimore plant. I understand that Baltimore was the first plant to receive a shipment of Muncies, I forget the date, somewhere around the 20th of February, 1963 and my car was built that same week, something like 3 days after they received the first shipment. I have the exact date at home, just can't keep all those numbers in my head. Also, the car has the original shifter and it's just like the shifter that was used on the BW transmissions. Some 63's had the "skinny" shifter lever just like the BW's and others had a larger dia. lever, still the same shape but made of larger stock. Mine has the small dia lever, maybe Ross can shed some light on this.

As for Richards comment about the possibility of a 61 283 having the 3/8" fuel lines, I don't know. I've never heard that but I wouldn't say he was wrong, The fuel lines were routed inside the frame on the dual exhaust cars to get them away from the exhaust. (single exhaust cars had the exhaust on the left side)The line was mounted to the inside of the frame rail at the rear, came through the X and along the inside of the frame rail up to the upper control arm where it went under the upper arm and then over to the fuel pump.

All of this is great infomation, thanks to Bob for getting this stuff together.

 

[MK IISS]

The '59s were the only 348 cars that had a die-cast crossed checkered flags over a V emblem on the hood. The '59s, unlike the 1958, 1960 and 1961 did not have an engine ID emblem (6-cyl, 283 or 348) of any kind on the trunk or back of the car except "Fuel Injection" script on the rare injected 283 cars.

The fuel line size needs to be researched further. I'm just going on what people have said who know a lot more about this stuff than I do. Too many conflicting opinions. For example.... If a 1961 283 with optional dual exhausts has the larger 3/8" re-located fuel line why wouldn't a '62 327/250 ?

 

[SteveD409]

Guru, as Tommy has pointed out, in '63 there were two different bench seat shifters--thin and thick handle. As far as I know there was but one shifter for the SS (console) 4 speed, either WG T10 or the Muncie. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The T10 was actually made by Warner Gear, a division of Borg Warner, here in Muncie, Indiana. I figured many wouldn't understand the "WG", so I thought I best explain in advance.

SteveD

 

[4onthefloor]

Lets explore the thick vs. thin shifter please...I assumed the thicker bench shifter was a Pontiac set-up....would the thicker shifter have called for a different floor boot ?

 

[Fathead Racing]

Crossed flags?

Yes Bob, the trunk emblem had the crossed flags also.

 

[jim_ss409]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this but I think all 62 409s had dual exhaust and the upper rad tank on 409 cars was different. It had two small hexagonal shaped dimples and it was sloped a bit, lower at the front and higher at the rear. Another difference that comes to mind is the tach, I think it goes to 8,000rpm with a wide red line between 6,000 and 6,200. I know the 327 tach doesn't go as high, maybe 7,000rpm The 409 fan shroud is different as well. It's not as deep as the smallblock shroud, about 1 1/2" less I think and it has one less rib.

 

[tripower]

Was reading this old thread that RCE1962 posted in another thread. The 61' 409 cars would have had a aluminum case 4-speed while the 348 cars would have had a cast iron case 4-speed with an aluminum tailshaft.

 

[dq409]

You forgot to mention,,,,,,,













THE BIG SMILE ON THE OWNERS FACE !!!!!