How to tell a 348 or 409 car. Need input for our FAQ page

[gearhead409]

Bob

for the past few years she has been building V6 engines, i think some of them are going into saturns. but thanks for the nice words, she will love it!

 

[gearhead409]

Richard Rockfish

i love to talk about the 62s they're my favorite car. i believe at the start-up of 62 production there was more assembly line problems than any other year because they were building tons of super sports, 4speeds and big engines were getting real popular, heck these people had never seen bucket seats before. maybe an alum front end car did get built on the assembly line ( don't think so ) but there were some gray areas and we never will have all the answers. this thread is a good one, it has helped us all to learn more about our W powered cars. thanks rockfish for giving us an education on the 65 409 cars. good info!

 

[oldskydog]

My experience comes mostly from my Corvette love affair (since 1962) but I believe the window sticker and tank sticker or build sheet listed the options individually even though certain options included other options as mandatory. I had a 68 Corvette which was a 400 hp 427 which was the 3x2 hydraulic lifter engine. When I dropped the tank and read the tank sticker I was surprised to find the engine listed as an L-36 390 hp engine and then just under that was the L-68 3x2 carburetor option. Most people refer to the 400 hp engine as an L-68 but apparently chevy considered the L-68 as a carburetor option added to the L-36 engine. As to the ballast resistor i don't know when they went to a resistor wire instead of the ballast resistor but all 55, 56, 57, and at least 58 v-8 cars had ballast resistors. I have two 58 348 250 hp cars with the original engines with the ballast resistors. My 58 Corvette has one as does my 58 pickup. My 64 Impala 283 has a ballast resistor.
Often a little research with an assembly manual can give a pretty good indication of running changes on the assembly line by looking at the box in the lower right corner. The notes may indicate a change from a previous part number as it is replaced by a new and improved part number and the effective date of the change ( not necessarily the date it was implemented on the line). My two cents.

 

[64ss409]

When I dropped the tank and read the tank sticker I was surprised to find the engine listed as an L-36 390 hp engine and then just under that was the L-68 3x2 carburetor option. Most people refer to the 400 hp engine as an L-68 but apparently chevy considered the L-68 as a carburetor option added to the L-36 engine.

Chevy did the same thing with the 425/409. You had to order the L31 400hp engine and the L80 dual 4 bl carb option.
Ron

 

[Fran Preve]

Gearhead: They built around 8900 409's in 1962, over a whole year that's not very many, especially when their spread around a few assembly plants. Adding a console and bucket seats wasn't a great big deal, small potatos. By the way, what size V-6?.

Sky dog: the L-36 was first on the tank sticker because that's the parts they used to build the 390hp 427 version of the Corvette. The L-68 was added to show the type of engine being installed. These parts were in common with the L-68 with the tri-power being the only change to the engine. When I compare L-68 engines built to L-68 engine options in the Corvette they match up. Your comparing apples and oranges, the information on the tank sticker with the options on the window sticker. The window sticker listed only the L-68, not the L-36 AND L-68, the tank sticker was used by the assembly plant to build the car.

The 1962 409 did in fact have an option for the 2x4 carb version added to the base 409 instead listing just the 2x4 engine alone as an option. You'll notice also on the window sticker the $236 dollar price for the 4 speed, which included the tach.

As a side note, the Sun tach used in 1962 broke very often. It would not surprise me that someone would discard the tach head and sender when it broke, hence some 409's being sold without a tach used.

Another side note: when the car was ordered with a 409 and a 4 speed the 4 speed would have had the $236 dollar price, because it was a 409. When the order got to any of the plants building full size Chevy's it entered the assembly line with a sheet telling the assembly line workers what parts/options to put on the car as it moved down the line. If it was a 409 the workers knew enough to put in the 4 speed and the tach, this was checked at various points on the line to be sure the car that rolled off the line had had the same options it was SUPPOSED to have when it entered the line. If the customer got the car and it DIDN'T have the tach that it was SUPPOSED to have there would be hell to pay!. If this was the case the dealer would simply call up GMPD and order a tach and have the service department install it. That's a very big IF it didn't.

I'm not calling ANYONE a lier, I'm saying they were mistaken. Either way the assembly line didn't just build whatever the **** they wanted, and the dealer didn't just order anything whatever the **** they (or the customer) wanted, and while mistakes of course have been made when assembling a car mistakes like those mentioned went beyond rare. Believe what you want, you will anyway, just don't expect a knowlegable person to go along with you.

 

[6064ELNO]

I thought the clue to engine size and or content was in the exterior badging. This is a picture of the badging on my 60 Elcamino. Other examples would be the crossed flags.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Fran, I agree with your assessment 99%. (Boy, did that hurt) The point I have been trying to make is that there are those "who dance to a different drummer" I recently saw a 1965 Pontiac Grand Prix in an old shed. I talked to the original owner- face to face- He special ordered this car with 421- tri-power, bench seat, column shift turbo 400. Next to this car was a Mercury Montego with 429. Both cars had not run in years and were for sale. I could have bought the Pontiac from the original owner with all the documentation and paper work but passed ( huge mistake). Picture a 50 yr old guy at a dealersip in late 1961. He orders a 4dr car with 409-409 4 sp. but demands "no tach". Why couldnt the build sheet been noted - no tach- They might have charged the guy for the package but deleted the tach. There was no mounting holes in the fender wells for a sender. The only disagreement I have with you is your refusal to admit that there were "special orders" that required assembly workers to bend the rules every so often.

 

[gearhead409]

Fran,it's obvious we have lost the integrity of our conversations and you don't believe anything i have to say anyway. but here goes, it's 1962 and as a young man i go into a chevy dealer and i spot a 409 4speed car on the lot and i like it and buy it. the car doesn't have a tac in it. how would i know it should of had one? the window sticker just stated i got a 4speed for $236.75 as stated on bob walker's copy of his 63 window sticker.

 

[Fran Preve]

Ronnie:I'm sorry, but I can't go along with your example. If they made "special concessions" for customers, on ANY basis (except in the case of GM executives who had what they call "horsepower". If they did it for one they'd have to do if for all (or at least many, it would become common). More likely would be for the dealer to tell the customer "we'll take it off when it comes in and credit you the $48.00". This way there's no putzing around with zone or the assembly plant for something "special". The dealer would do ALMOST anything to satisfy a customer, but it would have to be easy on them too. And it was NOT "getting the assembly line workers" to do ANYTHING, it was beyond their purvey.

Ronnie, this is not directed at you personally but to anyone reading it. DO you have ANY concept what was involved with ordering a car (by the dealer?). ANY concept on how the order was received by the assembly plant?. Or how the order was processed when the build went to the assembly line?. Or how many orders came in on a DAILY basis?. The process was involved, and complicated, the assembly plant had it down, and ANY deviation caused a problem. You people who insist that ANYTHING could be done haven't got a CLUE how a car went from order at the dealer to rolling down an assebly line, not a clue. Let's try it another way, an assembly line typically runs at about 40-50 cars an hour, the shift starts, the line starts and off they go. There were HUNDREDS of workers on the line, and more than a few supervisors. The next days parts requirements were set out, and they scheduled, say 409's, to be run in "batches", the may run a weeks orders on one shift on one day, just so all the parts would be where they were supposed to be. To expect that when this ONE car came down the line for them to call out "don't put a tach on this one" is a stretch. So how did this car get built without a tach, IF it did?. You'd have to be at the dealer when the order was placed, and at the dealer when it came off the trailer. You say the dealer made special arrangements for this one "old guy" who didn't want a stinkin' $48 dollar tach. I say the dealer could just as easily said "don't worry old timer we'll take it off when it comes in and credit you the $48 dollars". Who's right?. Who knows. All I'm saying is a car being built on an assembly line has to go MANY hoops. FAR more than people understand.

A "podunk" dealer had very little chance for any special treatment, "big deal" dealer well known to zone would stand a better chance.

I'll say it again, that rwo piece Sun tach wasn't a reliable part, which is why they bring so much money today, especially senders. Many were pobably taken off, many more than were built without one (if any).

Ronnie, again, this is not addressed to you especially.

 

[Fran Preve]

Gearhead: Did you?. Never mind, your example was, ...................never mind, read what I wrote while you were wasting keystrokes.

 

[gearhead409]

Fran

what the H are you trying to say boy! speek up. have i got your tongue tied. i've noticed every time i ask you a question you beat around the bush or change the subject. you should have been a politician! just thought i'd waste some more key time on you but it really isn't worth it. dad always said don't argue with a man with a gun or an idiot! PEACE BROTHER.

 

[bignbad60]

eARLY bIRDS LEFT OUT

gREAT DISCUSSION GUYS, IF YOUR LIMIING IT TO 61 TO 64 409'S , BUT WHAT ABOUT THEIR PREDECESSORS..AS MENTIONED EARLIER IN THE STRING THE GRILL BADGING IS A TELL TELL SIGN ON A 59 OR 60. mY QUESTION IS WAS THERE A TACH OPTION IN 1960 FOR A 348 IMPALA 3X2 CARBS 4SP POSI REAR..OR WHERE TACHS NOT AVAILABLE UNTIL THE INTRODUCTION OF THE 409...NOT TO UPSET ANYONE BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT THE 60 WAS THE TRUE SLEEPER MUSCLE, WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN SS BADGES !!!!!!

lET'S HERE IT !!!

 

[MK IISS]

bignbad: In all the ordering info I have, I do not see a tach option until mid 1961 when the Super Sport option was introduced. The tach was a required option on the SS even if the car was not equiped with the 409 engine.

This may be the answer to the '62 409 tach issue. We know there is a September 1961 printing of 1962 option codes and ordering info. As of September 1961 the 300 horsepower 327 and higher horsepower engines came standard with a tach when a 4-spd was ordered. I do not believe the tach could be deleted or would have been left off if the assembly line was out the tach when the car was built. Were there '62 409s built before September 1961? A 1962 409 4-spd car built prior to September 1961 may not have included a tach. However, so far we don't have proof of this.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Fran, No offense taken. I cant debate with you about assembly line procedures. You were at "a" Plant, I was not. Speaking of "a", The car in question was an Atlanta car if that makes any difference. ( which I am sure you will say "makes no difference". It is just a difference of opinion, and I can offer no proof, only what I have seen and what I believe to be true. Till next time.........

 

[gearhead409]

Richard

by what you are saying, i had an aug. built 62 awhile back. it wasn't a high performance 4speed car but if it was it might have been delivered without a tac.huuummm. now you got me thinking that the sept. built 61 i have wouldn't have had a tac. if so i might have one forsale!

 

[Fran Preve]

Gearhead: I'm sorry my friend, but if you saw the window sticker and you didn't know the tach was standard, then you would pay the extra $48 dollars and never know you SHOULD have gotten a tach. There's NO question that on the order form and in the dealer sales brouchure the 4 speed for a 300hp and greater included a tach, but according to Walkers window sticker a tach isn't specified as being part of the 4 speed. What confuses Richard and I is all the factory information we have says it IS part of the 4 speed transmission option. Now why didn't Chevy put one on EVERY car ordered with a 4 speed and 300/327 or 409?. Don't know and can't say but it would SEEM to be stranger that the car came WITHOUT one than coming WITH one. maybe they didn't put one on cars on the lot but did when the customer ordered the car and was told it was part of the 4 speed option. Or maybe the saleman "forgot" to tell the customer and had the assembly plant not put one on and then Chevy and/or the dealer pocketed the extra money. Or it could be the assembly plant (Atlanta for an example) didn't put them on because they were never told they were supposed to and other assembly plants knew and put them on. Or maybe they only put them on Super Sports and not other models. Maybe they guys on the assembly line kept them for themselves. Or put them on every third one. Or only on Wednesdays.

The bottom line Gearhead old buddy is ALL the sales information says a tach was part of the 4 speed option with these engines. That's all we can go by at this late date. You can come up with 60 different "what if's" or "maybe's" and any one could be right.

For the rest of you. The 250hp/327 was available with a 4 speed and that option cost $188. The 300hp/327 was available with a 3 speed or Powerglide without a tach unless it was specified as an option. The 409 was available with a 3 speed in 1962 and thus without a tach unless specified as an option. The 409 with a 4 speed and the 300hp/327 with a 4 speed, according to sales information INCLUDED a tach and is why the option cost $236 dollars.

There evidently were 409's built WITHOUT a tach, or so it's said. We don't know from what assembly plants or what months of production they were (if they were). This is a conumdrum (mystery to you gearhead) and it will NEVER be solved to anyones satisfaction.

Richard, could that 4 speed with tach option been pulled?. As in being in the order book at the start of the model run and not later. And are there two RPO numbers for 4 speeds, one for the $188 option and one for the $236 option?.

 

[Fran Preve]

Yes I'd say it makes no difference because I don't know why one assembly plant wouldn't know what each option code consists of. What I TRIED to explain is that ordering a car at a dealer was a complicated procedure for them and the assembly plant. They didn't "fly by the seat of their pants" because they couldn't, imagine the confusion if every order didn't follow a set procedure!. Divide the number of full size cars built by the number of assembly plants building them and you'll see the assembly line hummed right along, and at 40 an hour there wan't time to make any odd ball changes. If the customer ordered a car with a certain set of options they expected the car to be built with those options. "We're out of (fill in the blank) so let's build it without it" wouldn't cut it. But some out there seem to think that they pulled orders from a clip board and then made up a car willy nilly.

No matter, believe what you want, what happened 43 yearas ago is now "history" and "remembered" by guys now in their 60's (at least). I ordered a new car 40 years ago (a Plymouth) and all I can remember is it came off the trailer with a repaired rear quarter panel, no Commando V8 emblems and a Belvedere grill emblem instead of a Satellite emblem. I'm sure if I pushed the issue I could have got the correct emblems and grill installed by the dealer. And I ordered my 1985 Corvette with a 3.07 rear axle. The dealer told me it was on "restraint" and he didn't know if he could get it made. I said OK order it anyway (the order was already at the assembly plant). The car came in, no optional axle on the window sticker. At a later date when I had the car on a lift I was looking at the rear end and penciled on the differential was "3.07". Pacing alongside a 85 with a known 2.73 axle I was 10% higher in RPM and it in fact DID have the 3.07 gears. This was something that Chevy DID DO, they COULD put in something the customer WANTED even if there was a "restraint". Same at the engine plant, we did it, not very often and who knows when, but if we ran out of a cast crank and had steel ones we COULD put in the BETTER crank (or ANY upgraded part) as long as it didn't change the functionality of the engine. NEVER could we do the opposite, put a cast crank in an engine that specified a forged one (there were very few parts that fell under this).

Here's one i just thought of, and it's only a possibility. The Sun tach was made by a non GM supplier. If they couldn't supply the tach MAYBE they built the car without the tach and told the customer they would install one at a later date, if they still wanted one. That said, when I blew the 390hp/427 on my 1966 Corvette they "replaced the engine, complete" and it was held up a month because the Holley carb plant (also not GM) was out on strike and they required a new carb.

Now that I've completely confused the issue.......................................................

 

[MK IISS]

Fran: You asked me if I thought the tach/4spd option was changed later in the '62 model year. I would say no because the '63s came standard with a tach with the 4-spd option on 327/300s and higher just as the '62s did. In addition I never saw a '63 that didn't have a tach that was supposed to have one. I can't say on the '62s because I was out of the US for a while.

In an earlier post I said I have '62 pricing printed in late '61 (Sept) which shows the 4-spd option on 327/300s and higher with the higher ( $48.00) price which indicates the tach was included. I also have '62 pricing that is undated that matches. There is only one 4-spd RPO #. I no longer have a '62 sales brochure.

So my question is.... was there an earlier price list? It would seem there would be. Were not the first '62s built prior to Sept. 1961? The dealer ordering info prior to Sept '61 may have been different. Maybe the early cars didn't include a tach. In addition if there were two different pricing guides printed in such a short period maybe that indicates some options were changed. The tach may have been one of them. This is all a guess though.

By the way I'm not confused, as you said,......just a little bit screwed up.

 

[Fran Preve]

Richard: We've been boozeled by bam. After giving this more thought I've come to the conclusion there are people out there who don't WANT the tach to be part of the 4 speed option for these engines. SOME, I repeat SOME, not all would like nothing more than to confuse the issue, why?. Because then they don't HAVE to put a tach in their 409 car, especially if their building one, and let's face it, there are more "made up" 409's out there than real ones!. This is a BIG savings money wise, those old Sun tach's and senders are getting up there in price, sure would be nice if they could say "not all 409's had one". And don't think for a moment that this isn't a reason to "muddy up the waters" for some people. Add to that the fact that most people didn't know that the 4 speed option INCLUDED the tach, now they have a made up car or one with a questionable history and no tach, to be correct they need one and good luck finding one. The last thing some of these "builders" need is to find out now a tach was required.

I think we're chasing a shadow here, all the records you and I have show a $236 dollar 4 speed option for high horse engines, and that option INCLUDES a tachometer. The $236 dollar price reflects this because it's the $188 4 speed price and $48 dollar tach option price combined. I'm going to post a new topic tomorrow night laying the whole program out, from MY point of view. As of today my position is: ALL 409's where the 4 speed option listed a tach as part of it were built on the assembly line just as they were supposed to be, with a tach. Anyone claiming that the tach wasn't required would have to prove that with reliable documentation. This follows all other cars that had "required" options when judged at a show or bought or sold. It can't be any other way, as I'll explain.

Also, the 1961 and 1962 cars evidently had the tach head mounted to the side of the steering column, was that moved to a tach housing on the dash as of 1963?. This would also reinforce the claim that all 1962 409 4 speeds had a tach, all 1963/64's did (evidently). Bottom line, 409's with 4 speeds were supposed to have a tach, period.

 

[fiftiesbob]

Tach

Hi to all:
I have been reading about the tach option and would like to add the following:
I worked for Chevrolet until late in 1963 and have seen and serviced many new
348 and 409 cars. Whereby, I believe Fran is correct.
I would also add that while I worked for Chevrolet I seen and serviced a 1961
Belair, 348/350 Hp. 4 speed car that came from the factory with the tach.
I also seen a 1961 Impala, 348/350 Hp. 3 speed car with no tach and I believe both cars were delivered before January of 1961.
I hope this will help.
Fiftiesbob