How to tell a 348 or 409 car. Need input for our FAQ page

[gearhead409]

Richard

that's good enough for me. for some reason i always thought this is correct. chevy must have thought the 250hp wasn't a performance engine and didn't need a tac. could be, the one i have gets 20-22 mpg with a 3:55 gear.i don't mess with it!

 

[MK IISS]

A 327/250 could have a factory installed tach though....it was a separate option, RPO 331 @$48.75. It would be listed on the window sticker as a separate option from the 4-spd.

However a '62 409 reproduction window sticker that shows the tach as a separate option, such as the 327/250 example, is not correct.

 

[gearhead409]

Richard

right. the reason i was interested in the 250hp is that i made this car up from a powerglide car. the 4speed is correct in every way but i didn't put the tac in it because it wasn't part of the option. some that have seen the car said it should have a tac. i always thought it didn't have to have one and you proved that today. thanks.

 

[ROYALOAK62]

How to tell a 348/409

Guys, I'm going to the Detroit Public Library next week to check there files on the 348-409. I understand GM gave files to them. I my find info. that maybe of use to us. Don't count on a major find but I may find something of interest.

Dave

 

[rod61727]

I have a 1963 Impala SS...the ACC code on the trim tag reads F-C-G I have not found a source to tell me what this is...your chart indicates F to be tinted windshield and C to be padded dash, but no info on the G....or whether the fact that there are dashes between the letters tells more about the code...the car was built in St Louis the 4th week of April of 63...it is an 1847 body with trim 812 (black with bucket seat option) and is the correct color 922 ember red...it was bought as a 409 car, with a 340 hp 409, but the numbers on the block don't match the vin, although it is a 63 block...the rear end has apparently been replaced with a 1962 open rear end # 3725899, cast in jan 62 and built in feb 62 and has an AB code which indicates a 6cyl powerglide (however, 1847 is a v8 sport coupe body code, so I'm guessing someone blew the rear end out of it and replaced it with a 62 rear end that was available at the time)...since this has been changed, I'm wondering what the accessory codes mean...I think it is a 409 car, since it has the return vapor line to the gas tank, and a factory tach in the dash, and the right badges on both front fenders...it has the console brackets and console, all the correct SS trim, and with the 812 trim code, I'm confident it is an SS...any info on the accessory codes would be appreciated...thanks, Rod

 

[Rockfish39]

The complete package

This had been a fascinating thread. Much is known, and much is talked about, when it comes to the '62-'64 cars. However, the finer details of '61s and '65s are a bit harder to come by. Tommy knows ALOT about the '61s, so we all have a GOOD RESOURCE THERE !!!!

When it comes to '65s, look at the entire assemblage first. Where was it made, and when??? The cowl tag tells you where (assembly plant) and when (week and month) the car was produced. For example, if the car was produced AFTER 1/2/65, it should be a St. Louis car. The last 409s and first 396s were all St. Louis cars


I agree with the others guys who stated that NON-amateur clone creations can be built with pin-point accuracy, however one of the saving graces of the '65s is that so many parts are unique to it. The oil pan and exhaust manifolds are two gimmies These parts are not available in reproduction.



ALL 340hp/PG cars for 1965 have >>> (and this is by no means the complete list)

1) 1/4 " fuel return line

2) a Heavy Duty PG unit. The HD/PG is easy to tell apart from a STD/PG as the case is larger and has a giant "H" cast into the top of the bell housing

3) 12-bolt rear end

4) 4-link rear suspension (PS, the left rear upper control arm is unique to 409s and station wagons)

5) 14*6 in rims (not 14*5.5)

Rock

 

[JIMS409]

Rod, My '63 was built in SL same time (4D) and I believe "G" is for RR antenna.

 

[bobs409]

Good stuff for the 65 list Rock.

Jim, if we can confirm that G as being the rear antenna, I'll add that to the ACC list. Who else has a G and a rear antenna, speak up.

 

[JIMS409]

Bob, My Codes are C-G-Y Padded Dash, RR Antenna, Factory Seat Belts

Hope this Helps.

****************************************************************

 

[SteveD409]

My '63 SS, a Janesville car (I'm second owner) has rear antenna and no "G". Two St. Louis cars, parts cars, a 4 door Impala sedan and a 4 dr Impala HDT, highly optioned. Both have rear antennas and no "G".

SteveD

 

[64ss409]

SteveD
Does your car have an "S"?
Ron

 

[Fran Preve]

Richard: all my records and sales brouchres and price lists fofr 1962 show what yours do, the tach was included with the 4 speed when used with the 300/327, 380/409, 409/409 and cost $236.00 vs $188 for the 250/327.

The rest of you, stop saying assembly line workers could substitute anything they wanted if, say, a tach wasn't available when the car came down the line, GM doesn't work that way. Of course there WERE 409's built with 3 speeds. The car was ordered with a 4 speed and RPO that included a tach, the car was built that way. Of course unless your trying to pass something off, then sure, the assembly plant could build it anyway they wanted.

Richard: that window sticker was for the infamous "Zint" car that supposedly was built with an aluminum front end on the assembly line. You know how I feel about assembly line built alumnum front end cars in 1962. And I also know that when someone doesn't know what was or wasn't available with or without certain options they "assume" things and end up making up inaccurate window stickers. That the window sticker shown in Rumble is wrong doesn't surprise me.

I'll leave it, if all 4 speed 409's were SUPPOSED to come with a tach, and the car in question does NOT have a tach, I'd start looking at the car with a jaundiced eye. Trust, but verify as they say.

 

[gearhead409]

Fran

fran, when are you going to wake-up to the REAL world and realize there where mistakes made when these cars were built. in your perfect world, if it isn't written somewhere or in a secret document, then it couldn't have happened. i have an unmolested 348 with one oddball cyl. head on it,you said it couldn't have happened,i saw a new 67 327 impala on the show room floor with one 283 head on it, you said it couldn't have happened. i have an unmolested 62 super sport with firewall markings to be a bench seat car.these things DO happen! my wife works on an engine assembly line today,they build 920 engines per shift, they build them in 60 unit lots then change to another model. sometimes my wife's co-workers will miss the model change and put the wrong parts on 60 engines. most of the time these engine get corrected but not always. i'am sure these events aren't documented and in a perfect world like your's fran, you wouldn't see it. so don't ever tell me assembly line workers always assemble per spec. by their choice or other circumstances. BTW, some of the engines my wife builds do go into chevy cars. now i'll get off my soapbox. you all have a nice day! gearhead.

 

[MK IISS]

Fran: I think we are talking about two different cars in the same magazine issue. If I remember correctly the 409 window sticker I thought was incorrect was not the "Zint" car. It was a different 409 car, a Belair I think. This was the car with a re-printed sticker that broke the tach out as a separate option which is not the way the window stickers were printed in 1962 on 4-spd 409s.

I believe the Zint car has an original window sticker, not a reprint. It showed the tach included with the 4-spd option.

Anyway I think we all have come to the conclusion that '62 409s with the factory installed 4-spd option should have the factory tach. If a '62 has an original factory installed 409...has a 4-spd... but no tach it most likely was a 3-spd car originally.

 

[MK IISS]

Man....I'm sure glad I said "should have" instead of did have.

 

[Rockfish39]

1965 Radiator fan shrouds

409 application-specific fan shrouds for '62-'64 were also talked about,
But, did you know that the same is true for the '65s ???

How many times have you seen 1965 fan shrouds for sale on eBay advertised as a "409" unit ??? Most all of the ones I have ever seen on eBay are your garden variety BBC '65-'66 units, not 409.

There is a REAL SIMPLE way of telling a '65 409 shroud from your garden variety BBC '65-'66 fan shroud, but I'm not gonna tell you the answer

OK, Ill share this last little tid bit with you all too...

The 409 fan shrouds have left and right upper gussets spot welded between the ring and the frame. Garden variety BBC '65-'66 shrouds dont have these.

Rock

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Okay, I was gonna stay out of it, but I cant. Fact;; the 4 dr. car that i sold the engine-trans. out of was a 409-409 4 sp. car that did not have a factory tach. If a person would order such a unique car, maybe he wanted a car without a tach. Fact;; An interested buyer who showed up to look at the car , made a huge offer for the complete car, knowing it did not have a tach. He bought a 1962 Chevy. SS 2dr ht in January of 62 . It was a 409-409-4sp car without a factory tach. Would Fran call this man a liar? Fran seems to believe that his "records and sales brouchres" are a Bible. If it says so in print, it must be correct. With all due respect to his history and employment at GM , I dont think Fran had privy to every 409 car built in every factory in this country. At least Richard states "should have" in his statement. Fran believes all cars were built " by the book" Supervisors and assembly line workers are ( and were) human. Yes, I will admit that 99% of cars were built according to procedures, but there is that 1% out there. I have my opinion---Fran has his. I believe what I have seen,,not a sales brouchre. No hard feelings,, the Sun will shine tomorrow no matter who has a tach. and who does not.

 

[Fran Preve]

Ronnie: I believe at the end of my last post I said if it didn't have the required tach, as was listed as coming with a 4 speed with a 409 in 1962, I would be suspect. Anything COULD have been built, but COULD have been built doesn't cut it when a car is being sold as "original". Disn't I say to check a little bit more if the car didn't have a tach?. Anything may be possible but that doesn't mean it's probable.

Richard I didn't have the magazine in front of me and only remembered the Zint cars window sticker, my bad.

 

[MK IISS]

Man....now I'm really sorry I entered this discussion. Most of my friends say I'm full of sh*t....Ronnie just went and proved it.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

No way, Richard!! I proved nothing. Just voicing my opinion. My opinion means nothing to anyone but myself. The man I described as making the offer and owned the "new" 62 without a tach. is a friend of mine and has integrity and has always been honest with me. I believe his memory of his 62 is valid. He had nothing to gain by making up a story. Each person will have to make up his mind as to what was reality in 1962. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything,,, Just adding to discussion. Again,, no hard feelings toward anyone, it is just a discussion.